Welcome back to the zoo in a five-minute delay. Podcast number one on my leg. And I mentioned in the short game by myself showing the snow here, again this week, but I promise you, he'll be back real soon not to worry if I'm if I'm the monster and she wants to sell his guy will don't worry about it where it would not like he sells like pussy today. I'm upset. I've known for a little while. Now. We took a LinkedIn all the time. Always, always debating was what's going on and we think about some things that are happening around us in an industry and in this other stuff, but the skin on the show. Are you doing? Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. My pleasure. So I didn't really talk very much about what you do when, you know all that. So I think so why you give us a real quick, the bulb elevate a picture of what you? Yeah. Sure. So I started my career in B2B sales little over 20 years ago in the commercial security space and

Decided after a successful acquisition of the company to migrate into sales coaching and training. So, like some of the other people that, of course, we see I'm late. I work with individuals, as well as groups. And we, we work with those teams to help them better work on their engagement, strategies running better emails, and really kind of Bridging the Gap between the cell cycle. So it would have a lot of sales people struggle with. I'm as you probably know and you've spoken to people about is compressing the cell cycle and that's sort of what I spent a lot of My Career Training with my own sales team to sort of helping them compress the cell cycle and doing it in a way. That's hopefully soul-sucking.

Nonso sucking, you hit me right with the pain. That I joined the security company in in, you know, actually in the 90s or after college and travel for the company quite a bit, was in your stomping ground in London for a couple years and then mostly travel domestically. But, you know, had the freedom to to visit a lot of people throughout the world. Actually was fortunate to visit all 50 countries. And your during my time. I my big Focus was to train and Mentor inside and outside sales reps that we're coming up through the ranks to help them, to grow their hair to grow their footprint.

All right, so I'm always curious what number he was out walking for themselves. And I always think it's really bold and brave and I respect you a lot. Be like crazy cuz you're going to have so much responsibility at the price. You're nuts of a safe from that. I was wondering. How do you balance say that first day when you're out on your own you've got your sales, see you at your pipeline. You're closing your Ole event. You would go to Source the deals and Prospect people and all of that stuff your marketing. If you don't know. Now, you know, that's that's on you, your accounts, payable, when you get clay in your success, when you get a client's your support, when they have questions your, you know, you're literally everything. How do you make it even deal with that? You're really making me second-guess this decision, sounds terrible. Yeah, little kids is being an entrepreneur in the end. There is no people that listen to this podcast that are definitely entrepreneurs.

Thinking about being more entrepreneurial. You're right. There is massive moments of, of dino, pangs of of panic that say what have I gotten myself into? And if you're selling you, no sales coaching right. At the end of the day, we're all selling in one way or another. And, you know, you, you have to find a happy balance between doing the mundane, you know, I'll be at all. It's kind of like, opening a restaurant or a bar. You know, I remember many years ago. I had it in my head that I wanted to open a sake bar. I love sake. I don't know if you drink Sake but I was obsessed with sakis and I said to be so great to open a really hip small sake bar and I sat down with a few different people who were in the restaurant business and what I came away with in the end was that I like to drink Sake but owning a sake bar is probably a bad.

The idea. So, you know, it's a little different with this in that I like teaching. I really get off on it. I love seeing people's reactions and responses when they're struggling with an engagement strategy, you know, something as simple as email or making cold calls, or something more evolved where they've been promoted and they're trying to get a girl that pipeline. I like seeing their success. I love engaging people and talking to people about their struggles in about their passions and and and everything in between joke for me. The trade-off. Was me purely teaching sales and getting people excited by it as opposed to doing sales. All the time. I sell is far as The Balancing Act of all the things you mentioned. Yes, if it's a constant struggle,

You know, when you have to always be finding, you have to always be finding that time be than evening or early in the morning to, to do the sort of busy work. But yeah, it's been, it's only been a little while. So we'll have me on Evian again in and had me on again and maybe six months and I'll tell you something different, baby.

Okay. Well, they are you holding hands up? Like, yeah, it's not easy, but I respect. So I was to tell me about your first couple clients. Then did, you know, regarding it by yourself? I need to kinda, you know, you just let them know how I'm doing this and I'm already to go, but let's get this happening in. Or do you have some? But you're part of it is I I was somewhat known a pretty well-known it in a in a couple Industries and when I let you know, people know that I was that I was doing this shovel people quickly. Emailed me and said, I want to get you going right away with building. You helping me build a strategy in one case. And I was, I became a strategic advisor and then ultimately it grew into more and more involved engagement bringing on an Str team and training and helping with get the

Start up and running and some other things in a couple cases. It was more, just you. And I talking on LinkedIn or you and, you know, me and talking to somebody else or me. Just posting on LinkedIn and people finding it, interesting irrelevant and they reached out and said, hey, I don't know if you're open to doing some individual coaching and engagement, but I'm doing this that and the other and I'd really love your help, you know, the ladder and frankly was more. Well, more interesting, in the sense of we had no prior knowledge of each other. So it was, you know, I'm I'm more of an unknown to that person and the fact that, you know, they were interested in working with me was obviously flattering and also a really good experience because I'm I'm coming at it from the perspective of not knowing much about that person, their background, their Journey, what they're trying to accomplish. As opposed to people that I knew.

Previously who I had a little bit better understanding of their business model so that I can come at it with more knowledge. So it's it's, um, yeah, it's been, it's been an interesting few months for sure. But in the process, I've made great friends, like you. And, and the guys, that lavender and a lot of other folks that I've sort of it, you know, connected with who have great voices Visa V the, in the podcast for on LinkedIn and other places and being able to Banter condenser damn, talk and debate, some of the some of the challenges that people are having and you can do your great example of that and you bring up some some some really pointy and points at times that go against the grain which I love. I think it's really important to not get stuck being a complete Echo chamber. In the sales enablement world and I have a different voice. You have a different boys and others.

Have a similar voice, you know, so I think it's important to always, you know, Echo the sentiments that are that are relevant. But also it's okay to sometimes go against the grain and I could give, you know, if you want to have fun talking about some of those things that you and I were talking about a couple months ago. That's that's to the point.

Yeah, I agree with you. So it's funny how I've noticed the whole Echo chamber saying and has a doctorate in in moderation. Obviously a bit of controversy, a bit of the bay a bit of friction is actually very good. So stuff like my my webinars, I have contrarian points of you, experts fighting each other or trying to win that. You can play for a little bit. Sick of all, yes, I agree. Great.

Stuff I find that really really tiring. But instead of calling out like they can you said sending a code email? That's five pages long and I thought that's finally over. What's something that goes under the radar? You think there may be some people on it. Again. This is a bit contrarian, but, you know, we're having fun here. So, you know, I think that one of the particular were talking about sprove prospecting sort of cold early prospecting in in a, in a bigger bow, so I'm a big believer in in spending more time doing detective work. Then some sales managers sort of Ola, I'll give latitude unifor and the reason being

I think you can still personalized to some degree at scale without overwhelming yourself with the, you know, what, that detective working for. One of the challenges that I see a lot of ser as I can. I got pitched a lot especially the last year's cuz I do, you know, a certain title and has a vice-president. So people would come to me and sit and catch me with whatever service is ass back on there. They're selling. And what I, what I found is very often a, they made it very quickly about the pitch. I don't know. Who's you were? Somebody else that came up with that. Trim kit, slapping. I thought that was pretty funny. I don't know what that was in the last 6 months to a year. I noticed that and it's it's very common. It's really tempting to quickly, and try to address some problems. And sometimes there isn't a problem or least there isn't a perception of a problem and coming at it and try.

Reveal some massive problem that you're having within your organization and Shining a giant light on that. So that then you can slide in your picture about why you can fix that problem for me to me feels a little bit contrived, you know, and that you're one of their ways around that, you know, to put a positive on, it is too. It's okay. I've seen this people talking about. This recently particular is to create more of a of an open opportunity for dialogue and the weed that I like to recommend creating open opportunity for dialogue, is to shine a light on something, other than you or me. My problem, or your problem, your background in England, on my background. Here. It doesn't matter. What I'd rather do is talk about a third party as it were. So notice something that's not shining a light in. Your eyes are shining a light about me? Cuz that's narcissistic by Nature. We all know you're not

How to do that. So I tend to look at something else observationally that might be interesting, that could create a chance for dialogue, just an observational statement. I intend to avoid the? I talked to we had some good debates on LinkedIn about that specific subject. I know we all over. Lavender did a post about that a few months ago, which I thought was really interesting talking about the question, the question of the? Right because most people we talked about trappings are mistakes. Most people love to put a lot of question marks in their emails were on the phone, right? It's it's seems counterintuitive not to ask your prospect a lot of questions. I don't love asking questions. In fact, I don't use the? He ever.

I'll let that linger for a second. I don't use the? He ever I tend to do things more rhetorically and make an observation or a statement. That's probably going to resonate and probably kind of interesting so that I invite the prospect to join the conversation so I can make an observation about Kent, right? The City of Kent a little bit on the nose because that's where you live cuz I talk about kenter I talk about another city near 10th, talk about the south vs. The north, you know, people that have that discussion about North London cell phone, then I might be just making an observation that would be interesting to you. It's my perspective about that. Hoping that you have a selfie on your subject matter expert on that you might want to join the conversation and you could confirm a correct my suspicions. So I guess the best way to say what is a common mistake. I don't think that's asking a bunch of questions. This is incredibly counter into

And against most sales coaching advice. I don't like asking a prospect a ton of questions. I like to know enough about the prospects journey by spending a few minutes doing detective work. Plenty of places to get information and insight so that I can make some really interesting relevant statements around it peripheral to his world of her world where they can then join my dialogue and it becomes more interesting. Personalized dialogue, very early on and they're intrigued by me and they're piqued interest and they're intrigued by what we have to say to each other. And by the end of that, they're going to be asking me about what we do and how we can help. I'd rather them ask the questions. Not me. So there it is.

Like what you said about the question thing. I was thinking about that while ago, I asked them.

Carol said what do you think? Discovery clothes are actually useful in any way of Power from Just for the salesperson and they all said no, but that's kind of accepted. This is how it is, you know, you guys going to be accurate. I basically and then they'll be no one. But yeah, it's interesting because I'm a Believer.

Big Research into the ICP concert in Pacific Way, the things happen for them and why, and things like that company. Like the brothers, the ghosts, and all that stuff. So that if you don't worry about me though, I act all of the fancy passes. I should still think that it has a very boring to buy spot, clean lace, upon boxes, stand out a ride and get her something, but it's um, I just saw your text, right? It's, it's, it's a drag to be on original and there's so many unoriginal people out there. I'm sorry to be judgmental, but there's just so many unoriginal people and when you're pitching somebody or your, you know, even if it's wrapped in a veneer of a sort of, I'm just trying to have a conversation, get to know you, whatever it is, whatever you were approaches. Its it's uncomfortable in a Josh talks about the zone of resistance, Josh Braun II like that term, I think it's a really relevant point that coming into

Situation, no matter what you're saying, whatever the words are, the person you're calling or emailing has an immediate guard up short of saying, you probably trying to pitch or sound me something. Of course, you are your sales, your nasty are your Navy, you're a regional manager, whatever your title is, but that's implied. You know, what are the post and, and started jump around until 10, but you had opposed your, you see, I think you said something, like, don't say this or don't do that and I loved it. I, I thought that was so funny. But one of the things is, and I think you commented to this a little while back is, don't say hi. I'm Bob, shames a 3XL run. Hey, I'm only there. So you like, like, I think it's sort of implied if you look at your signature block, you know, what the waste words, telling them your name and where you work. I just got, that's a pet. Peeve of mine makes me crazy. When people try to introduce themselves and tell me in a hurry. My name is about to change. This is what I do. This is where I work.

It's obviously in the signature block and I would I would rather cut to the Chase and sort of open up a dialogue is to something that's really unique and interesting possibly going on in that person's world, but talking about it in a way that's not shining a light right in the face and making them feel uncomfortable and it's it's a it's a, you know, like anything it's a very, you know, what gentle art, you know to be able to do that. But anyway, I am sorry, I cut you off Ali.

But you know, I think when you make a statement and provided you all within reasonable accuracy, the little sub details to his individual to every single person in every account to Noah. So the subtext. You avoid work them to react to. It looks like, let's say for me. Let's say you're trying to help me walk out what we do in Fallout 4. First, ever bought your conference, which happened to the weight of a recording? Is you research me? And you're saying, hey, nice, that you had give a call the first time about your conference, that your company has ever done and then you make a statement. So it's you are seeing something based on what, you know, about me and my Persona, and ICP, and messaging, all that sort of stuff. If you do with an accuracy, I can agree with that and I don't necessarily have to say hello. To explain that basic stuff back to you and then my reply cuz that's what normal question. That's why I kind of have to reply. Yes. That's right.

We did do a conference, but if you're close, but not quite because you will never be a hundred percent. You, you have to speak to someone study individual circumstances. I can come back and say, yeah, I see, we know what we're going to do with the current pipeline people, that attended the event, put the new contact. We have nice teeth. All about that just yet, and that's why you want to help to get close but not quite but you can never be a hundred percent. But with just because you didn't ask the question that make me solve explain the whole of the land, you got close enough that I had to. I had to reply correct you. But that's all you're either going to eat all kind of articulate. What I was starting to amplify my my statement, you know, echo. My sentiments. Whatever euphemism we want to put on it or yeah, you can't be so off the mark that you're forced to integrate me a long. Let me of Corrections and explaining why I didn't understand you at all.

Or any not yet, but I've no idea what you're talkin about is the easiest thing to that is just to ignore it. And that's another thing that I, you know, I think of a really valid thing for the people listening is that you you go and engagement and Outreach. Always should be just a response on any kind any kind of replied any kind of replied is it can be a negative reply. Anyone can work with that when trained properly. And I think what you can't work with this silence and then there was, you know, I I I want to go back to something. You had a bug and a post about Cadence's. I don't remember that. I said there was a big back and forth or discussion about, you know, the average amount of Outreach. It takes to get a first response. And I think somebody said you were somebody else that 10.6 or whatever. The number was something over 10, and I remember thinking 10, or 11 attempts to hit.

Nail on the head close enough, at least you're being the range that the person finally says. Oh, yeah, they kind of know what I do with a kind of understand. My journey are they kind of know my pain points as something interesting enough year that I can come back and say not interested, or yeah, by the sounds great. I were kind of doing something different with that. But yeah, you're right. We are going to that conference or whatever. And my feeling is that's a lot of Outreach to get your first. No, or maybe, or yes, or some kind of Engagement and I would like to stress that, you know, what, you talk. You asked me a little early on, what do I do when I work with people? I'd like to find something that's so relevant. And, you know, even if it's a little a little bit presumptuous, you're not a problem. Just got a negative over town. So let's call it a something without being presumptuous and that's, that's the fine line. But but what you were talking about a moment ago about being in the General Lee,

And write your sort of at least in the in the general range, where there's something there that they say. Okay, you didn't totally hit the nail that you didn't totally get what we're doing with that program. But yeah, he's he understands a little bit about what we're trying to do. And I want to at least comment to that. You know, I called a lingering statement. I like to leave at the end of an email or a voicemail. I like to leave a little lingering statement that creates an itch, some kind of itch that chest is undeniable and you're just dying to add to that itch. You know, that's one of the things I encourage people to do, sticky improv classes. Long form improv classes. So they haven't been in and out of the oven, can't they? Just leave them in London doing improv teaches? You sort of how did, yes, and it add to a statement and keep it flowing and keep on adding to the story because that's what you want. Is a story that somebody can keep on adding to your building off each other, you're playing off.

Each other and that will lead eventually to a conversation about your pain points and challenges and what you doing, what they do and how you might be able to work together effectively. So and I'll be eating that course a little bit but that's that's sort of my my concern with a lot of people doing Outreach has that they get stuck into this little rhythm of saying the same thing, and coming at it slightly differently each time in their Cadence and by the eleventh and Twelfth time, is that okay? This person's not interested when in reality you never really talked about anything that opened up the dialogue in the first place. So that's why they were. It's not that they weren't interested is that you never opened up dialogue. You were just doing a monologue.

Hardball, this is good for long enough to kill Tywin is sadly. But before you get to Michael Jackson, she's like, oh no, we're not doing that at this moment, in time of whatever is the side of me comes out at night and I respond like provocative but it's a come back with something like, oh that's good. Because of just continuing without, you know, making a big thing. So it's so that's it. That's a big 10-4, sure, you'd be good at all. Do the lessons for probably not the year, the stage before him, but maybe someday, but if you end up doing it, send me some videos out. It'll be, it'll be a good laugh.

I don't know if it'll be a good law for the right reasons by what do that. I'll let you tell me what you think, but this is good. Bob says, thanks very much for coming on. Black. People will find you connect to the alarm or by Wednesday. Thank you. You are so three. The number three, that is act act sales. That's three, acts sales to sort of an omage to my passion for films and structure about 3x. You can also find me, Bob shames a LinkedIn on the only Bob James on LinkedIn and you can follow me there as well. If you want to set up a just a discovery call just to chat. It's free. Just go to 3x sales in this place. You can book a meeting with panties on

Call Ryan final thing. How do you stop by to get your punk ass Guy, books courses, something else podcast, definitely is for me cuz I like to hike and walk and it's good for me to listen while I'm doing it. I love listening to it. I'm certainly some of the, the great books that are out. There are many people of Reginald from Chris Voss to others and talking to people like you. The truth is, you do a LinkedIn to me has been an amazing journey because you can learn so much just by following people like you and listening to what their perspective is the different stages and and adding to that. So that's yeah, that's been a really positive experience for me personally.

All right, good stuff. So I appreciate you coming on that marks, the end of the episode that I sleep fights. If you're listening. Thanks so much for making this fall for the episode. If you don't mind. Do me a little favor Troublesome, five star of you and subscribe to you. Make sure you get next week's episode of promised, you and will be back pretty soon, but I had a little Hiatus for a little bit. So I have a good day and I'll see you next week.