Cyber leaders: Stop being your own worst career enemy. Here’s how.

Mitch: I've always been a fan of the saying no one is going to manage your career better than you. I believe that's true, and at the same time, I know it's wise to seek outside counsel and mentorship when you grow your career. Nowhere is this truer than in the tech realm, specifically cyber, which is dominated by really intelligent humans who are astoundingly good at solving problems. But these same people are often handicapped when it comes to leading other people and getting them to solve problems. Just because you're good at one, doesn't necessarily mean you'll be good at both. But maybe there's a method that you can use to get out of your own way, so to speak. Today, I'm talking with Brian Donovan. He is the author of Leadership is Changing the Game. The trick to leadership, according to Donovan, isn't to develop an entirely new skillset, or superpower as he puts it, but it's to hone your existing superpower and learn how to do a few key things, namely influence and inspire. We're going to talk to him about how this can be done in cyber, specifically for hackers and incident responders, and also take a look at something else he covers in the book, the imposter syndrome. Now, as someone who's been plagued with the imposter syndrome at various stages of my own career, I'm keenly interested in how to get out of this cycle too. So join us and together let's venture Into the Breach. Brian, welcome to Into the Breach. Happy to have you on the show today.

Brian Donovan: Great, Mitch. Great to be here.

Mitch: All right, so I understand that you have had a little adventure in the last couple days and you helped your daughter move.

Brian Donovan: Yes. Look, Mitch, I'm normally based in Melbourne, Australia, and I've traveled interstate. It might not mean much to you, but it's up near Byron Bay, which is a famous surfing area in Australia. And I'm helping my daughter move. And so I'm in a bit of an open area and there's a bit of an echo today. So I hope we're going to be okay. So what you think?

Mitch: Well, you're a little echoey, but I think that's a good tale to tell, especially if you're... Are you going to go surfing while you're there?

Brian Donovan: Look, I wish, Mitch, but no, I just go and watch.

Mitch: All right, well, that's also fun. That's also fun. So speaking of fun things, we are going to talk about your book today, Leadership is Changing the Game: The Transition from Technical Expert to Leader. So before we actually dive into the real questions here, Brian, talk about how you got into this. There are a lot of books out there on the shelves about how to be a leader, but what makes yours unique is you pinpoint it to cyber. So talk about how that happened.

Brian Donovan: Yeah, look, thanks, Mitch. And thanks for having me on the show. I really appreciate it. I love what you're doing with Into the Breach and the way that you're including people in the cybersecurity industry. It's such a great thing you're doing. And to get those folks on your podcast is terrific too because they're really making us all safe. So appreciate what you do.

Mitch: Yeah, I love cyber. I love cyber. So oh, I'll turn it over to you and tell me how you got here.

Brian Donovan: Me too. Look, I can't see it on the podcast, but I've got a lot of gray hair, Mitch, and so 40- plus years in the tech sector. And I was always working with people in the tech area who make this transition from once being some kind of subject- matter expert to then moving into leadership. And I've noticed this transition that people go through that it's often a bit of a rocky road because you often just get thrown in the deep end. You're good at what you do in solving technical problems in whatever your subject- matter expertise is. And somebody taps you on the shoulder and says, " Well, now we're going to make you a leader because you're so good at what you do." But really it's different kind of skillset that's required. And I've kind of codified that in the book, really my observation over that 40- plus years, Mitch, that it's all really about influence. How do you influence people above you? How do you influence your team below you? How do you influence your peers beside you? How do you influence your suppliers and partners also beside you? So I've really in the book attempted to describe the stages of influence that I think people go through as they make that transition from expert to leader. And I've now been doing executive coaching work for about 17 years, Mitch. And in that time really have got a lot of stories about how people have made that transition and when the light goes on how great that is for them to get results they didn't think they could get. And then how that applies to cyber I think is, maybe it's obvious, but we probably should spend a minute on it.

Mitch: Yes.

Brian Donovan: It's a very, can be, people come from a very technical background and then suddenly you're thrust in, you become, say a chief information security officer, and now you're talking to the board and the C- suite and influencing stakeholders all over the company. There's not much preparation for that side of it. You might be well- prepared technically, but not much support given generally for people. Such a critical, important job and becoming even more so, and you're not given much development and support in, well, how do I influence people? How do I get results through people? And that's really the key I think of leadership. And I'm sure we're going to talk a little bit more about that, Mitch, as we go through.

Mitch: Oh, yes. And in fact, I'm ready to start riddling you with questions now if you have buckled up.

Brian Donovan: Please.

Mitch: So I read through the book and I want to actually start by talking about what, and I already think I know the answer to this because I've been in the industry for a little bit myself and seen my technical peers be promoted and seen some of the challenges. So tell me what are the typical problems technically smart people have when they take on a leadership role? What are the symptoms that you're having problems? Because a lot of people, I think, aren't even aware until it's late in the game.

Brian Donovan: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And so often you'll hear people saying things like, " Oh, it's really hard to get good people." Now, I know that's true actually for the cybersecurity field, Mitch, and I'm sure you're going to talk a little bit more about that today, that there's critical skill shortages. But it's the people around you, how do you get the best out of them? And often, if you've been used to being a great subject- matter expert and an individual contributor, you'll often hear people saying, " Oh, it's just easier to solve it myself, it takes longer to explain it to people," things like that, which it really becomes about how do you trust other people to step up and how do you bring the best out of them? So there are some of the symptoms, Mitch, and you'll see people sort of saying, " Well, I'll just do it myself." And then getting overwhelmed, then getting so busy that you can't think, then the team around them will start giving feedback. " Well, they're like a micromanager." " They're like a control freak." It's just a trap that kind of what got you here won't get you there. It's a trap that people fall into that suddenly they're thrust into this leadership role. They're not really prepared for all the people side of it.

Mitch: So basically, it's A, doing everything yourself, B, not allowing or giving your teams the privilege of doing work for you, and C, feeling like you have to check on it all the time. Yeah, that sounds a little micromanagey.

Brian Donovan: Yeah, it does, doesn't it? Yes. Yes.

Mitch: So I want to talk specifically about services in cybersecurity and I want to talk about this from two angles. Number one is incident response, and number two is red teaming. So if we look at incident responders, they're a little bit different than engineers. This is the group that typically comes from Department of Homeland Security, CIA, FBI, and military. And they usually have a really strong regard for rules and putting things back in order. And a lot of these people are solitary workers, and they also have that mentality where they run towards a fire versus away from it. How can this handicap them as a leader?

Brian Donovan: Yeah. I love your questions, Mitch. Look, it's a great description that you're running towards the fire. And really what I want to say about that is you really need to think about in the first stage that I've talked about in the influence curve that I've described in my book is about reinvention. So whether you've come from a incident response background or DHS or investigations in CIA, FBI, we really want to see, well, what's that inherent strength that you have? And let's say it's going towards the fire, and you've described it quite well there, you really need to move from fireman to fire chief. The job of the chief information security officer, it's got chief in the title for a reason. And the reason is really that you're there to influence the strategy of the business. And so really the reinvention needs to be, well, what's the inherent strength that people have that we can now turn into a superpower, Mitch? So one way to think about it is rather than necessarily what the job title is is to think about, well, what's the strength I carry with me wherever I move? That sort of transferable strength. You could think about it as a personality thing too. Maybe for some people they're really great at thinking about the future vision, thinking out ahead two, three, five years out. Well, the reinvention of that strength is you've got to be able to bring people along with you, not just have your own vision. If you're a good people person, then you've got to reinvent that strength too. It's not about a popularity contest. It's about getting people connected with your vision and aligned and doing their best work. Or if you've got a personality that's kind of to do with more judging and evaluating data and facts and so on, you as a leader now you've got to use that strength to think about, well, how do I measure what matters and critique the important things that the company's doing? Or maybe I've been a great individual contributor and I'm really good at getting things done. As a leader, that's not scalable though. You've got to think about, well, my new problem is how to get other people to solve problems. So that kind of personality focus, I've found that's been a really helpful thing in my coaching, Mitch. And I can refer people even to Influential U as a great group who've just sort of codified those four personalities I was just describing. You can do a simple quiz. We can put it in the show notes if that's okay with you.

Mitch: I took that quiz. Yes, yes. We should put this in the show notes.

Brian Donovan: And what you discovered was about yourself?

Mitch: Well, I think there are four personality types, correct? And this was not a shock, Brian. I came off as the, oh, help me. What's the word? You had one too.

Brian Donovan: The performer personality.

Mitch: The performer personality, which that's ambiguous, man. Does that mean I perform well at work or I want to be on stage and be an actor? So I was curious what your thoughts were there. Which one is it? Is it both?

Brian Donovan: Yes, it could be. It could be. It's more to do with the ability to build relationships, Mitch. No surprise given the focus you have here on the podcast in getting people connected with what your ideas about your commitment to cyber is, and it's that people and relationship strengths that the performer has. And me, that's me as well. And to use that as a superpower, what we've got to do, Mitch, is think about, well, how do we... Often as a leader, I've found I'd be worried that people are not going to like me if I'm asking them to do something or give them some critical feedback. But really in leadership, it's kind of like parenthood. It's not so much about whether people like you or not. Respect is probably a better thing to be playing for. And so it's not a popularity contest. It's how do you get people doing their best work and bringing out the greatness in people. That's the job of a leader I think, Mitch.

Mitch: It really is. It's this unique balancing act, and I've found myself having to cultivate this skill of being able to give people critical feedback when things that they turn in really aren't so great and do it in a way that doesn't kill their mojo, right? It's like we still want them to be motivated. So how do you say, " Wow, that really sucked," in a way that doesn't make people feel like they really sucked? So let's talk about red teams too, because that's another area that I'm keenly interested in because that is a super unique, oh, there's an oxymoron for you, a super unique personality type. So this is a group of people who, I mean the way I think about red teams and hackers is I love these guys. They were the kids who all sat together at the high school table that nobody ever talked to because they always had headsets on and laptops in front of them. And they have little regard for rules. In fact, rules are a challenge. It's like, " Oh, you're going to give me a rule. I'm going to figure out a way around it." They've been hacking since childhood, and now a lot of them are coming into their own and being put into leadership positions. And these are folks who bucked tradition and don't have a particular knack for fitting in or growing a group. How does that play out in leadership?

Brian Donovan: Yes. Yeah, look, I mean, maybe I should preface my comments on this one, Mitch, by saying leadership's not for everybody. It is a transition. It's not the same. There is a great book Marshall Goldsmith wrote called What Got You Here Won't Get You There. Just the title is enough, isn't it, saying, well, you might have this great ability as some subject- matter expert, but not necessarily going to be just keep doing the same old will get you success in leadership. But again, if we go back to this idea of, well, what's the inherent strength that somebody who's a red teamer has? I think from what you're saying, you've got this great questioning ability though. Don't just take things at face value. That's a fabulous strength really not to just go along.

Mitch: It is.

Brian Donovan: Yeah, not just go along with the flow, what everyone else says, but ask really great questions and probe that. So in leadership, that's a critical ability. It's just that what needs to go hand in hand with it is when you said about, well, breaking all the rules. If you break the rule of, well, leaving carnage and dead bodies all around, that's not going to support you to be the greatest leader you can be. So it's that willingness to be up for reinvention that I think that's always what I'm looking for, Mitch, in people I'm looking to work with and who are the most receptive to coaching is not just the ones who say, well, " Look, I've got it all handled." A coach really can't do much to help. You got to be, well, you go, " Well, there's this new thing called leadership and how do I take that on and how do I reinvent this questioning ability I've got? And it's a great ability." I think that's probably, stop me if I'm going here on a bit of a rant, Mitch, but often what's found with people from cyber background or tech background generally, they've got a kind of picture of a leader they've seen who's been really great and they think, oh, I'm not that person and I could never be that person. But look, my thought about this is we don't really want to try and alter your DNA. We want to take the best of what you've got and take it to a new level. So if you're a great problem- solver, and I think a lot of the red teamers would be great problem- solvers, you've now got to say, " Well, I want to use that problem- solving ability I've got for the biggest problem of all, which is people and relationships. How do I get other people to solve problems? So how do I train them to ask really good questions?" Is that making sense?

Mitch: Yeah, I actually like that a lot. So it's not about not being you, it's about being the best you you can be. Finding that thread in your DNA that makes you excel, and then transforming that or magnifying that in a way that's inspirational to other people versus just being inspirational as a solo performer.

Brian Donovan: Love that. Yeah, that's great, Mitch, how you connect with that. Yeah, that's it.

Mitch: So let's talk about this imposter syndrome thing. So this has, and I've loved this theory for years, and you and I talked before the show and I told you about, so I suffered from the imposter syndrome incredibly bad, especially early in my career and even back to college and graduate school. So when I was at Stanford, I remember literally being in, I was in statistics, which was a terrible class. Well, it's a good class, but it's terrible for Mitch because Mitch hates math. And I was sitting in statistics and it was one of those huge auditorium- style classrooms and I was waiting for somebody to come tap me on the shoulder and say, " Hey, we're onto you. You need to leave. We know you don't belong here." So I carried that into my career for the first couple of jobs that I had. And I sort of have emerged out of it and I know how I did it. But talk about what that is and how that can play into cyber leadership.

Brian Donovan: Yes. Look, I love your example. I appreciate you being so candid, Mitch. And really, if we're honest, we probably all got a version of the similar tap on the shoulder that you were worried about. And mostly it happens is as the, I call in my book, Leadership's Changing the Game. So as the size of the game gets bigger, usually what goes with it is more questioning about, well, whether we're really up for that. Are we smart enough? Are we clever enough? Are we good enough with people? And all those kind of questions come in. And to me, Mitch, it's a bit like trying to feed a big hungry giant. It's got an insatiable appetite really, doesn't it?

Mitch: Bottomless. Bottomless.

Brian Donovan: And it doesn't matter how much you give it in terms of credentials and your job title and the car you drive and the house you live in. That conversation that you have with you about you, it's like you just can't feed that giant enough because it just, it's like a bottomless bit. And maybe while we're sharing examples. I mean, even coming on a podcast with you today, I think, well, I'm not a cyber expert. I'm not here with some of the people you've interviewed who've just got an amazing depth of understanding of the cyber industry. But I have to remind myself, Mitch, that there's a bigger giant I'm trying to feed, which is the value that I bring, Mitch, is really around how to bring my expertise about leadership and how to apply that to people who have got a technical background making that transition. So I don't profess to be a cyber expert. My expertise is on leadership. So that's a bigger giant to feed. I think if you create some new conversation that says, " Look, I'm up to contributing value wherever I go about leadership and any conversation I have, any interaction I have, I'm going to leave some piece of value behind about leadership," that's a like a bigger giant to feed, but it's not a default one. It's one that's quite satisfying to feed. Does that make sense, Mitch?

Mitch: It does. It does. So if I'm understanding this correctly, imposter syndrome is largely about how we talk to ourselves.

Brian Donovan: It's the conversation with you about you.

Mitch: Yes. And a lot of times that is a more critical and unkind and just horrible conversation than we would ever have with anyone in the world, including people we dislike immensely.

Brian Donovan: We don't need enemies. We got our own conversation. Right?

Mitch: Exactly. We can't get out of our own way, the title of this episode. And that inner voice, that inner voice that we talk to ourselves with, and I've dealt with this in my own development, and we talked earlier, we talked about not... You said this is not about affirmations. I personally am a big believer on affirmations, cue Stuart Smalley. But how do I change that conversation in my head telling me that I'm not good enough, I am a fake, somebody's going to find out? What helps me not do that?

Brian Donovan: Well, Mitch, I think it's around the recreating the conversation. So that conversation that I'm calling it a conversation, even though it's with you about you, it's like the one...

Mitch: Oh, it is a conversation though. You're right.

Brian Donovan: Yeah. It's the one, the little voice where you wake up at three in the morning staring at the ceiling saying, " Well, what was I thinking taking on that big project, or taking on this new role or saying I could do that?" I got an interview for a job and they gave me the job, and now I'm thinking, oh, they're going to find out about me. It's a conversation. So once you get that that, look, that's a conversation that I'm really creating. It's like a default one. But I can create a bigger one. Mine is, the example I gave you is, well, the default one would be, " Well, I'm not smart enough to do X," but the created one is, " Well, I can add value wherever I go around leadership." And that conversation then, you start to have practices and habits, and there's quite a bit more to it. But you begin that conversation, Mitch, that's a bigger giant to feed, but it's the one that's going to be more creative and ultimately going to be more satisfying for us because you can do something with that. The other one, you just wake up and there it is.

Mitch: Well, and I think you also are edging towards this point, that conversation that we have with ourselves is one that we have complete control over, complete. There are very few things in life that we have complete control over. The thoughts might pop into our head, but it's our choice whether or not we continue to entertain those and actually build on them. It's like, " Oh, I'm going to screw up this project at work and then I'm going to have a bad week and then a bad month and then I'm going to get fired and I'll be sleeping in a tent." I mean, we can change that if we recognize that that's how we're talking to ourselves and maybe alternate it with, it's like, " Okay, well pick out one thing, Mitch, that you did good today." And it could be as simple as I got to work on time. And focus on that. So it's like switching that conversation in your head. Am I going in the right direction?

Brian Donovan: Yeah, you're spot on, Mitch. I just love the way that you can replay that and capture the essence of it. It really is a choice we make. I would like to say to you that, I told you before, I've got lots of gray hair and you'd think that imposter syndrome would go away, but here I am today thinking, oh, well, maybe I'm an imposter coming on a cybersecurity podcast.

Mitch: It does not go away. Because I think for so many of us, especially people who perform really well and get pegged for managerial roles because they are good performers, that's endemic to who we are. It makes us achieve. However, it isn't a really healthy habit.

Brian Donovan: Yes.

Mitch: And it's lifetime. You have to just change the way you think about you. And I argue with that voice every fricking day, multiple times. So I am right there with you, my friend. I will always be imposter syndrome to some degree. It's learning how to manage it versus it being inoculated against it.

Brian Donovan: And I like the term you've used their, habits, because it is just a habit. We get into just this anxiety habit and we think this certain kind of way, and what you've pointed to is really, it's a choice. So it's really what do you give oxygen to? Do you give oxygen to the big hungry giant that wants to be fed telling you you're not good enough in some area, or do you want to give oxygen to the one that you create? That's some area that you're passionate about and you've got some habits that you start to put in place to support that because it's not enough just to say it. You've got to support it with habits and practices. It's like going to the gym, you don't just get fit by thinking, oh, I'll be fit now. You've got to now start creating practices to support your fitness.

Mitch: I like that because I'm also a big gym guy. So it's a muscle, you have to train it and you have to train it frequently, otherwise it atrophies.

Brian Donovan: Exactly.

Mitch: And it is a choice. And a lot of times I have found, Brian, that if I actually pull out some of those messages that I am telling myself, the negative ones, that it reinforces imposter thing, those are actually sometimes something someone else has said about me in my history that isn't necessarily true. So the fact that it's like, " Oh, you're dumb, you can't really do that. " It's like, " Well, I actually have evidence that I'm not." I mean, I can do really stupid things, don't get me wrong. But those are often old things that people have said about me that aren't true. So I think that might play a role in it too. What do you think?

Brian Donovan: It's so good, Mitch. Yeah, yeah. I'm enjoying this so much. It's like evidence gathering. So maybe the people with investigation background resonate with this that you could kind of gather evidence for lots of different conclusions you want to reach. So if you've already concluded, well, I'm not smart enough, then you're going to find the evidence for it all over the place. But if you start to recognize, oh, well, that's just this conversation I've got going on, now I can choose one about I add value wherever I go, then you could start to gather evidence for where did I do that and how did I do that and what's the feedback I got about the value I provided? You start to gather evidence for the new place that you're standing in. The point is from where you're looking is where you'll see the evidence.

Mitch: So the conversation might be, let's just say I'm a tech person who has been recently promoted to management and I am struggling my little ass off. And I'm playing that negative tape in my head, you're going to F it up, it's going to be really hard, you're going to get fired. What if I go back to the evidence that got me promoted in the first place? It's like, hey, I'm really good at solving problems. I am smart, and I just need to apply that same skill here and I'm going to figure out how to do it. Something like that. So pick what's good and reinforce that instead of reinforcing the fear.

Brian Donovan: That's it. Yeah. Yes. That reinvention process we were talking about earlier, part of the value of doing that is you really discover what your strength is. I called it a superpower before. So if you're a really good people person, for example, that reinvention of, well, how do I use that strength I've got of connecting with people and bringing the best out of them, that's what enables you to take things forward rather than be stuck in talking about your weaknesses. I think really we could talk for ages, all of us, about our weaknesses, but most of us are not so good in, well, what is our strength? What's our superpower? That thing that we carry with us really from childhood and it's transferable in each job. What's that strength we have? Because that ability, that's what got us where we are, that's what's going to take us to the next level. We just need to keep reinventing it, Mitch.

Mitch: Yeah, I love that. That is actually so very true. So if you're listening to this, figure out what your superpower is, and chances are it's not coding and it's not necessarily writing, it's whatever drives you to do that and do that well.

Brian Donovan: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly, Mitch. Yeah.

Mitch: All right, Brian, so I have a couple other questions for you and we're tight on time. Dang it. This has been a really good one. So I want to know, I'm going to ask you couple quick- hit questions here. So who is your best manager and what did you learn from that person?

Brian Donovan: Yeah, look, I had a great manager who, really three simple things that he did, Mitch. I had often wondered what is it about him that people want to go the extra mile for him? And really I kind of ended up describing it in three ways. He very, very simple. The first thing was he said please and thank you. So if he asked you to do something, " Oh, Mitch, look, I really need you to do this job. I can't think of anyone better. I know you're busy. Could you take it on? Please, could you?" You'd go, " Yeah, okay." " And oh, the only thing is I need it back by Wednesday. Is that okay?" "Oh yeah, okay." You'd bring it back. And he'd say, "Oh Mitch, thank you. This is great work as usual. Expected you would. Thank you so much for that job." The please and thank you, how hard is that, Mitch? You got to go to leadership school to do that? It's not that hard, is it?

Mitch: You wouldn't think. But okay, noted, please and thank you.

Brian Donovan: And then the second thing was he took an interest in people. So he knew things about their family and would ask you, " How's your kids? And what study are they doing? And where are they up to?" He took an interest in people. So again, it's not that complicated is it to spend a bit of time listening and getting to know people, but it makes such a huge difference to people wanting to work for somebody like that who takes an interest in them. And the kind of related thing, the third thing he did was he would challenge you. So" Mitch, I want you to take on this big job. I know you'll be great at it." And you'll maybe going, " Well, I don't know if I can do that." " No, no, you'll be great." He really believed in people. And if I play back a lot of what I've heard from leaders over the years, Mitch, is that people say somebody believed in them more than they believed in themselves at that time. I certainly had this experience with the leader I'm talking about. They just trusted that they were going to be great and lo and behold they were. And those three things, it's not all that complicated, is it really?

Mitch: Well, no, but it's a rare skill, ironically. It's not complicated, but it is rare. So number one, please and thank you. Number two, take a personal interest in people. And number three, challenge them in the right ways.

Brian Donovan: Yeah, challenge and believe in them. Yeah.

Mitch: Challenge and believe in them. So yeah, my best manager I think was very similar. I mean, this is somebody that I would follow to the ends of the earth. And the thing that worked for me is I was given a really broad charter and told to just go do it. And if I had questions, I would get a couple of pieces of advice. But largely, I was just let loose. And he was there when I needed him to answer questions. And that style really worked for me. And guess what? I did a kickass job.

Brian Donovan: Yeah.

Mitch: All right. So one more question for you. So you are in an elevator and you meet somebody who says, " Hey, I want to be a really good leader in cyber." What is the first thing that you talk about?

Brian Donovan: Wow, that's a good question. So you just got the time in the elevator to answer that, huh?

Mitch: Just got the elevator time.

Brian Donovan: Look, I mean, it's got to be something you believe in. So much more can happen if you want to take on something that you personally believe in. And you believe in the work that people are doing in cyber. I believe the work they're doing is just so critical for us to keep us all safe. And businesses are now finding out the repercussions if you don't have good controls and good people at the helm in cyber. So there's an opportunity to make a huge difference that keeps us safe. And it's kind of a role that's out in the limelight. So again, it's not for everybody because we all know that it can be pretty tough there. So people say it's everybody's job and then when something happens, they tend to point to the cyber chief and say, " Well, what did you do wrong?"

Mitch: Yep. Yep.

Brian Donovan: So you've got to have, I think, that personal commitment that I believe intrinsically in what I'm doing here and the value of what I'm contributing to business and making the place, I don't want to sound cliched about it, make it a better world, Mitch, but really to me it's just such an important area to be working in.

Mitch: Well, I am cliche. I love the whole better world thing, so feel free to use that one.

Brian Donovan: And the thing that goes with it, though, is you've got to build your influence to get results through others. So that's the big job of a leader I think is take us somewhere we haven't been before. We do need people who can keep things going. And I'm not in any sense when I'm talking about leadership today, I'm not in any sense decrying we need managers who can keep things operating. And that's so important. But history's littered with examples of businesses that are no longer with us because they didn't have leadership, they didn't reinvent, they didn't think about the future enough. I mean, I'm a bit older than you, Mitch, but there's a great example in Digital Equipment Corporation, DEC. A big mainframe computing company, still making billion- dollar profits in the'90s, but just couldn't see the opportunity of the personal computing market and got wiped out through not being willing to reinvent and have that kind of leadership.

Mitch: So the advice is A, do what you're passionate about, B, learn how to influence, and C, reinvent.

Brian Donovan: Yeah, see your job as a leader is to change the game. It's how do you influence strategy and take it somewhere new, not for the sake of it, but that's what's needed is to reinvent.

Mitch: Brian, thank you. I really appreciate this. And for those of you who are listening, we will include the URL to the personality quiz that Brian talked about, which is really keenly interesting and shockingly accurate, or at least it was for me. And we have a URL for Brian's book if you're interested in that. And you can check him out there. And Brian, thank you again for being on Into the Breach. We appreciate your time and your insight here on helping us all be better leaders.

Brian Donovan: Mitch, it's been a pleasure. I love talking with you the way that you connect with things that add to the conversation. It's really great. So thoroughly enjoyed today.

Mitch: A special thanks to our guest Brian Donovan for his time and insight for this episode. If you want to hear more stories like this, make sure to subscribe to Into the Breach on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and Spotify. You have been listening to Into the Breach, an IBM production. This episode was produced by Zach Ortega and our music was composed by Jordan Wallace. Thanks for venturing Into the Breach.