The Blurred Lines Between Sales and Marketing

Darryl: Hey everybody. It's another episode of the INSIDE Inside Sales show. I am so glad you're back. It's been a while. It's probably been like seven days. Quick question for you. Do you guys listen to every single episode or do you skip ahead? I mean, I'll be full disclosure. You're not going to offend me if you say you don't listen to every single one. I get it. I'm the same way. When I look at my podcast, I kind of go and say," What's the topic of the day?" And if that one resonates with me, I'm all over it. Otherwise because I listen to so many podcasts, so I'm just curious. Let me know your thoughts on social. Do you do that or not? I want to hear from you. Next question I want to talk to you about is have you ever thought about this? This is the feedback I'm getting from a number of my guests recently. They're like," I'm getting weird things from your show Darryl, where I'm getting a lot of people calling me and actually pitching me their stuff after I've appeared on your show and they always mention your show." So that's dawned on me that you guys may now be using podcasts to source your next person to target, which I think, between you and I, heck it's brilliant because talk about hearing the whole conversation, hearing what the person's like, getting a feel for them. It's not cold, it's warm and you know them all already and there's so many things you can speak to. So I've just been getting that feedback from a number of people on the shows. You're using podcasts for prospecting and I think there's an episode there to be had, but we're not going to do it today. Today, I want to talk a little bit about- there's only so many topics you can cover when it comes to sales, right? We hit them all up, but I thought it would be kind of interesting. So you know my drill. I was a CMO, but I've been a VP of Sales and a sales rep before. I started off selling copiers. But then I kind of left the whole sales gig for like a decade and then I came back as CMO of VanillaSoft and then a couple years later they made me CRO and boom, I'm back full fledge in the sales game. But I've been talking sales for forever, because it's a skill I have, it's something I've been doing, but that always lead to the conversation," Darryl, are you're a marketer or are you a sales rep?" And it's a legit story. I hear that often. Who makes the best zero ahead of sales or ahead of marketing or maybe ahead of ref ops. And there's no answer to that, but it was interesting. Yesterday, I was on a call with a one wonderful individual, a wonderful woman out of Ireland. And you're going to hear her on our upcoming show. I'm not going to give it away, but here's she is. She's running sales and what's her background? Her background is she had her own marketing agency and now she's with this company and she's running sales and it's amazing. One of the things we see over and over and over again is how sales reps have gotten so many skills that what would historically be called marketing skills. And we're seeing, and this is the conversation I've had with her and with others, that line is blurring. And in fact, my answer that I think the best CEO is the person who understands marketing because sales, you do by just living it, right? But understanding marketing and the bigger picture and managing budgets and the whole idea of having different buyers and understanding the messaging. Those are all marketing skills that are now transferable to sales. So I thought to myself," I need to get myself a guy or a gal," I'm not fussy, or anybody. They have to have a heartbeat. They have to be living and breathing. Who's actually done sales and marketing, but now can come to us with what I call blurring of skill sets. Are they marketing? Are they sales? I don't know. And talk to us about, with that kind of mix, how they themselves approach sales and how they have coached their team to approach sales. So today's conversation is not at all pointed. We're going to wander. I like to make sure there's one or two or three things that you guys always get away from this one, but I just want to wander because I'd be curious of your thoughts, do you think sales or marketing is blurring? And if you say no, I'm going to challenge you, because I'm going to say, if you say no, then you don't know your counterpart and what they do and that's affecting you and you need to know their counterpart in what they do. All right. Those of you who know me know I recently went through hell. Hell I tell you. Where I was put through the ringer on this big ass bracket that I didn't volunteer for but I embraced the moment of the opportunity where our good friends at Chili Piper came out with this guerilla tact and they said," Who are the top marketers?" And they had a list of over 200 people. And then they brought it down to about 32 people and they said," Okay, these 32 are the 32 we think are the best of the best. And if I get this wrong, my guests will correct me and, and we're going to bracket and see who do you think... Is A better than B? And we're going to go to the end and we'll have the top person." And I was in this bracket. Now the bracket was 32 people. And you're saying to yourself," Well, why 32 people?" Well, it's a bracket, right? So you got to have those numbers. So 16 and 16 go down to eight and eight, go down to four and four, two to two and one to one. So that's the gist. That's why it was 32. And I started going through this emotion rollercoaster of begging and pleading all of you to please vote for me, I'm desperate and I need validation. And when it was all said and done, my friends of Chili Piper were incredibly generous with their praise and their encouragement and their promotion of me. I finished third. Thank you for all those of you who voted for me. That's about 28 steps higher than I thought I would finish so yay me. But with that, my friends, if you don't know the mastermind behind that and everything else that's going on at Chili Piper these days, the coolest company on the face of the earth is a guy named Daniel Cmejla. Now I will fully admit, I had to ask him how to pronounce his last name. Let me spell it for you. Okay. C M E J L A. How would you pronounce it? But it's Cmejla. Hopefully I got it right. If I didn't, he'll correct me, Dan, welcome to the show. My friend.

Daniel: Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to be here with the third greatest marketer from right there, right?

Darryl: crosstalk You know, you've really made it when you're with the number one marketer.

Daniel: inaudible Gusto. It was so fun to see. And you know, we crowdsourced the full list. So a bunch of the folks at Vanilla nominated you and then we formed the top 32 based off the frequency of nomination. So it was all user generated, crowdsourced content. And I think it speaks a lot that you rose so high to it. And I will say, I voted for you more than once. It was the memes that got me.

Darryl: The memes were fun. The best one I had, I was up against Udy from Gong. That's right. Folks, I beat Udy from Gong. Now before you think," Wow, Darrell, that's something." Full disclosure, my meme was me saying," I'm screwed."

Daniel: Yeah. I think Udy may have taken pity on you.

Darryl: He did. Udy took total pity on me and just didn't engage at all. A meme said," I voted for you, Darryl" and he didn't do anything so the reason I beat Udy was because he said lead in zero promotion, but I'll take it.

Daniel: Yeah.

Darryl: All it matters.

Daniel: It was legendary to behold. We're talking about sales and marketing and marketing and sales. I think-

Darryl: You got it.

Daniel: They're becoming more and more of the same.

Darryl: So what'd you think when I was doing my opening spiel there, what was your reaction?

Daniel: I loved it. The only thing I was a little questionable about is the mastermind behind all of that's happening at Chili Piper. It's probably too weightier words for me. We've got an incredible team led by our two incredible founders, Nicholas and Alina Vandenberg, who are actually also a married couple and they're the ones who've created this culture, which allows us to innovate and prioritize actions. So a lot of amazing marketers, Kaylee Edmondson being one of them on our team. And I'm just happy to be part of such a great team, but I loved it. And tactically, I think you're totally right, that sales and marketing used to be different but they're coming together now. And the reason for this is marketers are actually required to make a sale now, because back in the day, a marketer could give you an email, like a CSV with 150 leads on it and say," Here you go, sales, I've done my job. Congrats." But now those lists aren't converting without marketing's help. So marketing is on the hook now to deliver. Not leads, but they're on the hook to deliver qualified held meetings and in order to get someone to take a qualified held meeting with you, to sit down with someone, it requires a little bit more elbow grease. It requires what I think is sales, sales done by marketers. So I agree with you.

Darryl: You really nailed it. I agree. So what would you say to the sales reps who are listening to this radio and saying" That's bullshit. Sales is sales. Marketing is marketing. Two different skill sets. I cry foul. Everybody's saying this these days. I don't see it." What would you say to them?

Daniel: Well, I would say if you have like a revenue operations person in your team and you're doing some analytics, maybe you have mode. Maybe you're super beefy with your Salesforce reporting. Take a look at your closed one deals and see," Hey, how does inbound convert? How does outbound convert?" But then take it a step further. How does outbound convert when it hasn't been touched by marketing at all? And what you'll find is that the way buyers purchase today, it's multi- touch attribution. They're attending an event. Then they see a LinkedIn post. Then they click on a paid ad. Then their friend refers them. Then they hear something else and like 90% of this stuff isn't even tracked in whatever attribution software you're using. But even with what little you can scrape out, at least at Chili Piper, we found that that if marketing isn't part of the deal, they close three times slower and they're much less likely to close. So if marketing is essential for you closing deals, that sounds like sales to me. So, that's what I would say to the AE.

Darryl: There we go. I love it. Okay. So let's talk about you. Now, you're this marketing sales rep hybrid, not unlike me a little bit. You've done both. Our audience, reminder sales reps, AEs, SDRs, primarily, where do you want to start on this conversation? You want to start on maybe how your marketing skills, they can utilize some of what you've done. You want to talk about, from your point of view, do you want to talk about, what's worked for you when you were in sales? You want to talk about how you've managed your teams, like which direction you want to go into?

Daniel: I could go with anything. I guess one of the things I would love to talk about is like marketing sales CS. All go to market function, all work within anything. There are a couple unifying principles that I learned doing sales or doing political persuasion that are super valuable in marketing. So maybe we can start there because I believe that outside of sales skills, outside of marketing skills, there are like people skills, there's process skills. There's how you organize your time, how you're efficient. And those are the precursor metrics that basically support all actions of all go- to market teams. So I'm down to start wherever, but that's something I'm particularly passionate about if we want to get into that.

Darryl: Okay. So I want to get into that. I'm going to throw the baton to you shortly, but you mentioned something and I want to bring it to the attention of the audience. You might have heard him mention the word, politics, for example. So if you check out Dan's profile, one of the things that I never knew until I was checking Dan out for conclusion in the show, because you know, we go to LinkedIn and make sure we get the title right and everything. We want to make sure we honor our guests. And I happen to see that Dan has been active on the political side for doing fundraising. Right? For example, you have time here at'Bernie Sanders for President', where you had to create and manage a small team of callers in three weeks from lapse donors, and then how much you raise per team member per day, et cetera and that blows my mind. So before we end this call, I want to explore that a little bit because that's like a masterclass there in sales alone. So, that's the teaser guys. If you want to hear about that-

Daniel: I'm excited to chat about that too. It's all sales. crosstalk methodology to fundraising and people were just, they didn't know how to handle it. It was amazing.

Darryl: All right. So let's go back to the point you started off with and we'll circle back to this. Go for it.

Daniel: Yeah. Okay. So sales reps, before you focus on any of your hard skills or whatever, what you want to focus on in my opinion is your time. Because basically whatever you do, however good you are, you multiply that by the number of actions you take and that's your result. Let's say you're the best cold caller in the world, but you only 10 people a day. Obviously if you called 20 people a day and they're the same quality people, you're going to do a lot better. So there are a couple things I would suggest to everybody. I show this to everyone on my team. I think it's really important. I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who's in the National Guard the other day and he was talking about how like every day all the National Guard folks, they have to go run. They have to work out to stay in shape. But what's interesting to me is nobody ever teaches you how to run through your machine. They don't tell you how to navigate your tabs really quickly. They don't tell you how to be efficient. So there are a couple tools I would really suggest. One of them is called'better snap' tools. This is a really simple tool that allows you to navigate throughout your tabs on your computer really easily. For example, I could immediately pop out this image I have with Darryl put in the left side of my screen, create a new spreadsheet on the right side of my screen, compare the two, move them back, make it full screen. All the things. Better snap tools is like a running on your laptop versus not running on it. I call it micro automations. There's another thing I like called tech expander. Text expander is an incredible tool. Maybe you've heard of it Darryl, but it's like all these snippets you could use, like let's say you were to insert a template using whatever your cadence solution is. They're just programmed to hot keys. So what I've done is every time I find something that I'm repeating a lot, maybe it's a very nice way of saying goodbye on an email. Maybe it's an intro. Maybe it's part of Chili Piper's value prop. I'll write that up perfectly. I'll take an hour to write up one paragraph, but then whenever I want to say that in the future, it's simply a hashtag and then a couple words in it populates. So what I would challenge you for sales, marketing, everything, before you start your next day, go look at what you do and see how many times you're repeating something. If you're repeating something, can you templatize that? If you templatize that, how can you put that into a process where you can access it easily, where it's organized properly, all this stuff. This has been the number one game changer to me because I guarantee you unless you're already doing the stuff that I'm talking about. I'm probably about 1 to 5% faster than you, navigating my tabs. I probably send emails maybe 20% faster than you would, but with the higher quality. So, that's the very first thing. It's my thing. I tell everybody. I'm totally obsessed with the tools, but before you start running, think about how can I run faster?

Darryl: Oh my gosh. So we've never talked about this before. Tools that we actually use to make our job better every day. So you use better snap tool. I use magnet, which is effectively the exact same thing. And for me, this is my must have productivity thing cause everything's got to have a place. So it's like a pilot, when I'm navigating, I need to know exactly where to go to and I actually went out and bought over the Christmas holidays, I'm not making this up, a 32 inch 4K monitor because I could get more windows on that one monitor and magnet combined was brilliant. Text expander, exact same way. So whatever you guys are doing, emails or personalization, maybe you do a live chat. Who knows? All these text and phrases that you're using over and over and over again. Why do you reinvent it? Why are you looking for it? Copy paste. Everything else, text expander, dynamite. Brilliant. So your example of you get to run, but they didn't necessarily teach you the best way to run and I love it. So are there other tools that you've seen reps use? These are the guerilla tools. I love that. Here's the thing, guys and gals. We sales managers look at you and say," How many conversations have you had? What's your activity?" All that kind of stuff and you're like," Well, I can't do it all because I've been busy doing A, B and C," and that's just a time suck. So right away, what Dan's giving are other tools you can use to eliminate the time suck and optimize your time so then when they ask you those questions, you say," I had four conversations today and I made 50 dials and I'm a kick- ass rockstar and I want a raise right now. So there you go. Other tools that you use, that you or your team swear by?

Daniel: Well, obviously Chili Piper, right?

Darryl: Chili. I was waiting for that.

Daniel: Well, it's like, if you're spending all this time going back and forth with the prospect, trying to settle on a date, we like just embedding the times, right, in the body of the email. They pick a time. It works great. But yeah, there are all kinds of tools like this, but also the application of certain tools, like I don't write out my email address anymore. I just do'# DC, Dan at Chili Piper. com' auto populates. There's certain URLs that I go to, like dashboards in Salesforce that I have tied to a certain hashtag as well within text expander. So I don't have to navigate to that stuff, which is really small things will take a lot of time off your plate and doing these manual tasks. And what I'd recommend is you follow a theory of leverage. This is something that Pete Kazanjy taught me when I joined the community, Modern Sales Pros, but like the lowest leverage thing you can possibly be doing is a onetime input that is a onetime output. It's essential. You need to do it a lot. For example, all cold calling is this, but then you go up the leverage hierarchy. So a onetime input with a onetime output is the lowest lever leverage thing you can do. The second lowest leverage thing you can do is build systems that enable you to do these one time input and one time outputs more quickly then delegation work that enables other people to help you build these systems. Then it keeps going further up. I think the highest level of leverage self- actualization is like building processes that enable to be more efficient with the systems you build to use templatized material. So it gets all the way up there. But once you start thinking about leverage, you're like," Okay, wow, I'm doing this one task constantly. If I just templatized it and built a process around it, I'm going to be 5% more efficient there." I'm like a proverb guy but Tour de France, if you look at the Tour de France, there are people who do this and win. It's like small incremental gains. Like when I saw, I was watching a couple years ago, there was a team that ate when they weren't allowed to. You're going up this big hill, you're not able to eat, but they all ate and in doing that, they gained like 2% energy on their competitors. Now what was the cost? It wasn't a decrease in time. It was a$ 10,000 fine. But that$10, 000 fine was massively exceeded by the benefits you get from winning, right? So where can you get 1% more effective, 2% more effective, 5% more effective. It'll add up. If you focus on this first, you'll be more effective in whatever you do. Sales, marketing, all the things.

Darryl: So there you go. Dan's telling you to be intentional about how you optimize your time and utilize your time so that you're spending more time on the right things, less time on the wrong things or not even the wrong things, but the things you have to do that are just rinse and repeat over and over again. They just bam, like his email example,/ DC. Boom done. There you go. So we've talked about time management before, but we haven't talked about some of those tricks and how you be ruthless and you approach it. I love it. Now, a couple things I got to do. He mentioned Pete Kazanjy. Pete Kazanjy's going to be a guest within the next one, two or three episodes. So look for that episode, Pete Kanzanjy. You'll know he's with Atrium HQ as well as with the founder of Modern Sales Pros. And if you're not familiar with the Modern Sales Pros, it's one of the original communities and it tends to target the more senior sales people, just so you know, and that's where we leaders, when we have a tough situation with you, our employees, whether it be compensation or anything else, we go to this Modern Sales Pros and we ask the really hard questions in a quiet and confidential way. And we get pretty blunt and honest feedback back. And the best thing about that, that I love and everybody I talk to loves, and this is important in the age of community that really has emerged and blossomed in the pandemic is how they moderate. They let it go, but if there's even a hint of promotion, you either spend it for a month or you're booted. So if I were to say," Oh, that's a great question." Your question was, what are the best sales, cadence tools out there? What have your experiences been? If I were to hop in there and say," Well, you can talk to Salesloft and Outreach and VanillaSoft. If you have any questions, I'm a bit of an expert in this. Let me know," Boom. I would be suspended for 30 days because it would come across that I was pitching. So, that keeps the conversation focused. I love that part about it. Okay. I need you, Dan, rockstar Dan, to settle an age old argument. Okay. Here's the argument. You're with Chili Piper. One of the best tools out there for scheduling appointments, every single prospect you're meeting, you want to get them. You want to book them so you can do the demo and discovery, right kids? You should be using Chili Piper, enough said. Go there, check it out. But here's the question. And we've done our own study on this. I want to see if my data matches your data. There are two types of people, when this scheduling happens, there's those that says," Just give me a link or a sales rep. I'm going to send you a link and you click that and you find the time and bob's your uncle away. It's done." Or there's the buyers who say," Do not dare send me a link because you're making me work to book time with you. Like you are more important." So what's the right approach, Dan?

Daniel: I'm going to have to pick option C, right?

Darryl: Yes. I like where you're going already.

Daniel: Option C. So what we can do with our tool is we can embed times within there. So it would be the same saying," Hey, does 5: 30 on Tuesday work or 4 on Wednesday or whatever?" Then the prospect simply clicks on whatever block is associated with that time and it'll just auto- book them one click all the way through. So that's one way we solve this. The other way is sometimes you want to get a commitment on the phone or they say," Hey, this time works for me." We have a tool called Instant Booker, which allows you to just put their email address in, pick a time, one click book. What's cool about our tool there is not only can we do the booking, but our tool will look up across your CRM, HubSpot or Salesforce, who the account owner is, it'll route it to the correct person. So not only can you see availability for all the correct reps, but you can offer availability for them, book with their zoom link all in one click. So yeah, I think it is rude sometimes to be like," Hey, let's chat, but it's gated behind this booking link." We call it the booking link battles, because everyone's like," You use my booking link," and they'll go" No you use my booking link," right? So we think the best way is just to make it as easy as possible for the buyer. That's what we're about. Buyer enablement. Make it easy for them. They can book the meeting right there in the body of the email. So that would be what I would suggest.

Darryl: You see a theme here, folks. It's about everything. These are like efficiency savings over and over, over and over again, which actually increase what you want, which are meetings and deals. So that's that. All right. We're running tight on time. That's fine. We've saved the best of last. If everybody hated everything Dan and I had to say beforehand, but you stuck around, we're back. Let's bring it back to your experiences when you were with the politics side thing. We got your Bernie Sanders for President. I know you've done other stuff there as well and the whole fundraising side. What lessons did you learn as a leader or as a sales rep or a fundraiser? In this example, fundraiser is effectively the same thing as selling. Let's call it. It's a different process, but it's comparable. What did you learn? What are your takeaways? What war stories can you share?

Daniel: Well, if it is didn't love us yet, you might either love or hate us based on this next part. So I got my start in sales doing a fundraising door to door and what I found actually, and this is something that like all marketers, I think, would benefit from as well as sales people, is that the first yes we got and I think I had over four years about 500 employees. I was in charge of training, all of them and we raised about half a million every summer. And then just going out, knocking on doors, asking people for money for a cause. But the first yes, I'm curious what you think it is Darryl. You're in- person with someone. What's the very first'yes' you get after they open the door? The opening of the door's the first'yes'.

Darryl: So they get the first yes. So it's the next one where either they let you do your spiel or they invite you in?

Daniel: Yeah, I would say it's even more granular than that. It's eye contact, right?

Darryl: Oh, okay good.

Daniel: Yeah. Like you are walking down the street and there's somebody panhandling, right? And you look at them in the eyes and then you feel like shame, right? Because I'm of the belief that when you engage with someone, when you look in your eyes, you're making a contract. I acknowledge you as a person. You are real, you exist. And that was the basis for all of the political fundraising and political persuasion I did, which is basically just a different version of Sandler, right? Now, what I'll say here, I think it's definitely the most interesting, but it's also pretty disturbing because the thesis here is that like sales, politics and political persuasion are very much based on tactics, right? So let's say I were to approach a voter and I were to say,'What issues the most important for you?" It's the 2020 primary. They're Democrat, they got 10 candidates to pick from. They say," I care the most about gun violence. I want to prevent gun violence." Now a sales rep would say that you've actually just gotten your first commitment. Sandler would say they committed to you. That's their most important issue. So what we would do in politics is we would run Sandler on them. So we'd say," So it sounds like this is the most important issue to you, yes? Yes. And you're going to vote for the candidate who's best on this issue, right? Yes." So all of a sudden you've taken this whole voting decision or in some cases of software purchasing decision, and you've narrowed it down to an argument that you think you can win. In some case, maybe it's'I want to increase my speed to lead with Chili Piper,' or'I want to protect my kids from gun violence,' right? Then from there using sales, using Sandler, you can bring them through a talk track. What I find disturbing is that this is very much endorsed and used by more conservative groups, like anti- abortion groups in the US versus like progressive groups who think that like the issues are enough. I think the issues aren't enough. Psychology is how people make decisions. But if someone says gun violence is their most important issue. And I say," Okay, cool. And like, what do you think's causing that? Do you think it's the NRA?" And they say," Yeah, we won't solve gun violence until we solve the NRA." And I say," Okay, how are we going to solve the NRA? How do you deal with that?" They say," Oh, there's this issue of big money in politics, right?" And I'm like," Got it." So you want the candidate who can best tackle the issue of big money in politics. I can tell you that in 2016, Bernie was the answer to that question a 100% of the time. So I had a team of 40. Whenever anybody said," Oh, gun violence is our top issue," we would use sales, specifically Sandler, to get them to the point where they realized we're not going to solve the epidemic of gun violence in the US, until we do something about legislation. We won't do something about that until big money. So all of a sudden, you take an argument,'which candidate do you want to pick across a hundred issues and 10 candidates' and bring it down to,'how do you feel about this one specific issue?' And I always found that fascinating. So here's the scary bit of this data here. In 2016, if we spoke to someone who is leaning Hillary Clinton in New Hampshire at the beginning of the conversation and identified gun violence as their top issue, 80% of those folks, by the end of that conversation with my team, had agreed that Bernie was the candidate who'd best solve that. And they've affirmed that they were either leaning or strongly in supportive Bernie. So I just think that that blew my mind. It still blows my mind. It is a little scary when you think about the way you're being marketed to or sold to in politics is based on the same trainings that they teach you in sales class, but it definitely is eye opening. So the best way you can do this is just be aware of these biases yourself to help you make more informed decisions that are less influenced by sales and as you can see, I've been watching this sunset here with this natural lighting that's kind of gone away, but Darryl, I don't know if that's what you were looking for or not. But I personally find that crosstalk

Darryl: Cause what you showed me is that sales to sales to sales and the importance of that. You were doing guided selling, using standard techniques. You're doing a classic discovery where you weren't where you say"Is the issue guns?"" It's guns." Well effectively, it's the classic." Well, why? Well, why? Well, why?" And finally, you guided the point that, well, in fact it was the money issue. Yes. Okay. So that's your real pain. So then," You agree that Bernie's the right guy?" So now you're guiding them again into their decision. So I'd love to, and the fact that if Daniel can do that with, shall we call it a small team of volunteers that quickly, then you have no excuse my friend to not have the same success. All right. We are totally out of time. What'd you think folks? I told you it was going to be a little different today. A little fun. I had fun. This is a different flavor of an episode. We need to do more of this stuff. What'd you think? I love it. Daniel. Best way to get ahold of you?

Daniel: You can reach out to me on LinkedIn. If you want to try out our tool, just go request a demo on our website, chilipiper. com, and you'll see it in our action. We'll lead score you in real time, route you to the appropriate rep and schedule you right there. It's really cool. A lot of folks perceive us as a scheduling tool. We're more of an inbound lead conversion tool, but I'm just so happy to chat with you. It's been so great. I'm so glad that we've stayed in touch through the years since when I was at MSP. And what you're doing in building is so exciting in your community and the work that you do with the podcast and everything. It's just a real honor to be on here and I probably get the award for worse lighting as well. So I've managed to differentiate myself.

Darryl: Well, I know Daniel is going to be going," What the hell's going on?" This is going to be multiple stages of editing your lighting in the video. That's good. He's going to earn his money. This is fantastic. When I say Daniel, I mean Daniel, our producer, not Daniel Cmelja. So there you go, Dan. Thanks again. I had a blast. Folks, if you like this one- oh, in fact, before we forget. Daniel, plug the marketing show, the podcast. Yes, plug it.

Daniel: Yeah. So our Senior Director of Demand Gen, Kaylee Edmondson, sits down with amazing marketers and CROs, right? To just chat about all things modern in marketing. So it's Demand Gen chat. You can find it on all major streaming services. Kaylee is incredible and you'll like it. It's great.

Darryl: So we began talk about how marketing and sales are coming together. You listen to this sales podcast right now. Go subscribe to a marketing podcast. You will learn skills that you can use in your sales success. That's Daniel Cmelja, I'm Darryl Praill and this, my friends is another episode of the INSIDE Inside Sales show. You take care. We'll talk you soon. Bye.