A Conversation About Trust from Brene' Brown's Dare to Lead
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Hello, this is Rebecca Fleetwood Hession, host of the Badass Womens Council Podcast, and I'm glad you're here. We have Alissa Bartenbach back today. Going to dive into the section of Dare to Lead that focuses on trust. And as you listen and as you think about this topic for your own life and career, know this, if you want to take a deeper dive into all of the content from Dare to Lead. We have a virtual session coming up in July. It will be four Fridays in July. July 9th, 16th, 23rd, and 30th. These are four hour sessions that Alissa is going to lead, and she is a certified facilitator by Brene Brown herself. She's the expert in this content. And we would love to have you join us. In addition to the class, you'll be put into a community group within the Badass Womens Council Community, where you can continue the discussions, and you can continue to dive into this content, to be a more courageous leader. So, I hope you choose to do that, it'll be super fun. To learn more and to get registered, go to wethrive. live/ events, and you can get the information and get registered. Okay. We're going to talk about trust today and how it plays in with meaningful connection. In order to have connection, which is what we're about here at the Badass Womens Council, reflection and connection, you got to have trust. And trust is one of those words that can be airy, fairy, woo, it can mean very different things to many different people. And so, we're going to put a little bit of structure around it. Not too much, we're going to still have a conversation like we always do. But when you learned about trust from Brene, tell us a little bit about the context of how it fits into the bigger picture of what she teaches.
Alissa Bartenbach: Sure, sure. So I think trust, and one of the reasons why I think we should start there is because this is honestly a tough topic. You heard the word trust, kind of like we joked about last time with vulnerability. And you are probably sitting here thinking, okay, I can right at the top of my head, have a positive image that comes to mind of somebody I trust, or my brain is going straight to somebody who I do not trust. And trust can become a really hard conversation to have, especially in the workplace. Brene calls it like a gauzy topic, it's a hard one to really say, this is what trust is. And most of the time, another thing I love about the work she does is it's all based around research. And the majority of the time, it's easier for us to say what something isn't versus what it is. So, she comes a lot from the perspective of, instead of saying, well, what is trust, all of her research is she's asking questions about what is not trust, and getting those examples to help us learn what are the things that make a difference interest. And so she does have a unique spin because she kind of has this acronym, it's called BRAVING. And she has this BRAVING inventory, so that it's a really clear cut way, that instead of sitting down, let's say I say, maybe Rebecca, maybe you've been late to work three times, and I'm realizing that I got to have a conversation with you about that. And instead, I sit down to talk with you about how I don't trust you. And it's a pretty broad topic, I just don't trust you. It's going to be much better off if I talk about the things specifically that are impacting why I don't trust you or what needs to happen in order for me to earn trust. And so, we get specific with it. That's point number one that she does well. The other thing that's a great point to realize before we even jump in because no matter what kind of acronym we can talk about, building trust with someone, it only happens in a million tiny little moments over time.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Right, right, right.
Alissa Bartenbach: So it's hard work. And anytime you're having an interaction, you're likely building or taking away trust, by the way that you communicate or not communicating, trust is in the air and happening all the time. It's about being intentional and building it intentionally through these specifics.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Yeah, love that.
Alissa Bartenbach: And this one for me, as part of like, okay, if you're going to do the work, then you got to do the work. And so, I got a situation in my life right now where I have someone, let's be honest, there's somebody I'm supposed to co- parent with. That's somebody I need to trust. And we are in a situation where there is not trust. And what is so great about this is it works at work, but it works in life. But now that I know what BRAVING trust looks like, gosh, this isn't just about what somebody did to lose my trust. The game's changed now. Now I know what I need to do in order to own my part.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Let's just pause on that for a minute, let's just pause on that. This is big, because it's easy to want to point fingers. It's easy to point fingers, especially in this situation. You've been through a lot of hurt. I've been through a divorce, lots of our listeners have been through these kinds of challenging relationships. And it's so easy to want to point fingers. But what we have to do is pause and say, okay, the only thing I have control over, influence over, is me and my choices. So now I got to look at my part. And oh, that can be so hard.
Alissa Bartenbach: It is. And I think as we talk through what these look like, there are going to be a few that you're like, okay, yeah, I can do that. That makes sense. I can say that. And then there's got to be a few that are like, oh wow-
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Oh hell no.
Alissa Bartenbach: Yeah. And I've been doing that, and that's going to be tough. So, that's the one thing, this is brave work, folks. This is not, a lot of times in the work we do, in leadership development, it's called soft skills. If I took anything away after this certification is being able to have a much better way to talk about how leadership is nothing soft.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And this is a perfect example of reflection, right? So the first step is we're going to do some reflection on what can we do to build trust.
Alissa Bartenbach: Yes. Yeah, and that is, I spent a good amount of time blaming. And to tell you the truth, I had every reason to do it. I could have ran with that story probably as long as I wanted to. But the difference especially as we walk through some of these today, and what's kind of helped me is, and again, high achieving women, that's who we're talking to here. Sometimes when things go out of control, we are searching for something where we can say, okay, what can I do, what can I influence?
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I clean my closets when things feel really out of control.
Alissa Bartenbach: Oh my gosh. You do? Yes.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Yes, because it's like, oh, look how neat and clean it is.
Alissa Bartenbach: That was my daughter's room, Saturday. I'm supposed to be traveling for work. I haven't packed myself but yet, guess what I spent two hours doing, organizing Shopkins. Does anybody know what those are?
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Describe those for our listeners who may not know.
Alissa Bartenbach: Shopkins are these little things for girls that are the tiniest little pieces, and they can be little lipsticks, or my favorite one of hers, it's this little waffle, it's not bigger than my thumbnail and it has two little waffles that go into, I mean, you complain if you have boys and I complained about this at one point, had Legos and you stepped on those. But there ain't nothing like a Shopkin. Let me tell you, the lipstick, she gets me every time. Because you know what I needed in life. I needed my four year old's room clean. That was really going to get me far in life.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Because that felt like everything else in your life was a little more together.
Alissa Bartenbach: And I saw the before and after. I accomplished something.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I get it. I get it.
Alissa Bartenbach: And you know what, the other thing, I don't know if you do this, it was not on my, because I have a serious to do list. It wasn't on there.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: You put it on there so you could check it off.
Alissa Bartenbach: Yeah.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Oh, girl, I feel you. I just want to know, was the room clean when you got home?
Alissa Bartenbach: I don't know.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: It happened right before you came?
Alissa Bartenbach: Yeah.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: You're going to have to report back.
Alissa Bartenbach: We will see. We will see.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I doubt it. So keep going. So you feel as high achieving women, we have this need and want to control but like I always say, we don't have nearly as much control as we think we do.
Alissa Bartenbach: Well, that's always hard about trust. Somebody seriously broke my trust. I'm not talking about inaudible, I'm not talking about little things like these are big things. And they've been consistently happening for two years. And there's a big part of me that thought, you know what, it's just always going to look like this, and there's nothing I can do. He's the one breaking the trust. And as we walk through some of these, you're going to realize that there's some things you can do in order to have some control in some situations where you feel like it's the other person. And then if you're honest with yourself, and that's part of doing this work too, because we never want to be like, oh, yeah, I do that, but if you're honest with yourself, you can see how maybe even unintentionally, you've been hurting some trust with other people too. And start to change that.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: One of my favorite quotes by Maya Angelou is, " When you know better you do better." And so, this is one of those moments where when you see it, now it's up to you to decide, are you going to do it differently.
Alissa Bartenbach: And let's talk about that, as we go through these things, let's be transparent and give real life examples of some stuff because, I mean, that's what this work is all about. Like I always say, if I I had to go through all this stuff just to tell my crappy story so someone else would feel brave enough to tell theirs, then I'm all in, let's do it.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Yeah, let's do it.
Alissa Bartenbach: Okay. So, we are going to talk through BRAVING. And the very first one, the B, stands for boundaries. So, another big word, right? We talk about boundaries. And it's always great when we talk about setting them, but it's never so good when we talk about other people setting them with us.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: With us.
Alissa Bartenbach: And one of the things that I really struggled with is, how do I go about doing that, because there's some people I feel like I can be secure and strong, or if I really believe in the boundary I'm setting, I can communicate that pretty clearly. Even if I was doing a good job, I never felt like I was saying it in a way that even I believed it was okay for me to set the boundary. It was like ish, it had an ish boundary, ish. So this is tough. And I also think it's something that as women we struggle with a lot because we were a lot of us raised to do for others.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: All of the others. And the neighbors, and the people at church, and at school.
Alissa Bartenbach: And to be happy when you did it.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Oh, smile, girl.
Alissa Bartenbach: And setting a boundary is hard stuff. And you know what's even harder than setting it, is sticking with it, and then take that another level farther. Let's say you set the boundary, let's say that somebody doesn't abide by it, now what?
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Now what?
Alissa Bartenbach: Now what do you do? So this is not easy stuff. And one of the things that she teaches, and I love, honestly, Brene is so good at making things simple, which I completely need. And so, she talks about boundaries are really simple. It is saying what's and what's not okay. But yet we overcomplicate the crap out of that. We do until we learn that all you got to do is say what's okay and what's no okay. And let me give you an example of this. So, moved into a new house with my kids about a year and a half ago now, and within about 24 hours of moving in, guess what I found out? I have the crazy old lady of the neighborhood that lives behind me. She's the one who wants to tell me about everything and complain about everything. And her newest rant, since it was time to start mowing grass, which I'll just admit, I don't do, there's a lot of things I do. Cutting grass, it's not going to be one of them.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Outsource. I'm a fan. Outsource.
Alissa Bartenbach: It's one thing I'm not going to do, I'm not a fan of sweating. Just not. So there we go.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: All good.
Alissa Bartenbach: So the guy that I hired to do this apparently does not do the best job of cutting behind my fence, which is essentially her backyard. So every time I step out to my backyard, which is my place, I've got a little fireplace, my kids playgrounds, so we go out there, I can sit under the umbrella. My hammock that I lay in and read. Every time I go out, it's like she knows that back door is open and she comes out there to complain to me about it. And a few times I was polite. I was raised to respect my elders. She reminds me of my grandma, who am I to tell off my grandma? And I came back from Brene training, I step outside and there she is complaining. And I said, " You know what's okay? To say hi, how are you today. You know what's not okay? To complain to me about anything." And I turned around and I went back inside. And you know what she said to me everyday since, hi, how are you.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Let's review for a moment. Boundaries are to say what's okay and what's not okay.
Alissa Bartenbach: You got it.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And now you literally and figuratively have boundaries both of fence and expectations with the neighbor lady of what's okay, which is to greet me, and to not complain about grass.
Alissa Bartenbach: Yes, yes.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: That makes me happy.
Alissa Bartenbach: Right, right. And so, I'm proving it can work, right? Even with a crazy person, it can work. And I think everybody that's listening right now, they've got something that's in their mind. We're talking about boundaries, they either have that person, that place, that thing that they are, first of all, probably thinking like I have to do, this is no longer right for me, or it's no longer healthy for me. And their wheels are turning about why they deserve to set this boundary, and hopefully over time, they get the courage to figure out how to set it. So I would just encourage you today, whatever that might be, even if it's a really small one, test it out, because that's the other thing about this work. Sometimes I do really silly things to test out, am I am I capable of doing something just so I can take on the next big one. So honestly, thank goodness I took on the lawn lady because I needed that trial to take on some bigger ones.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And that's what I say about trust is can I keep a promise to myself first. That says, am I trustworthy, do I trust myself? Can I keep a promise to myself?
Alissa Bartenbach: Okay, so you just perfectly segmented us.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Okay, good.
Alissa Bartenbach: Segued. Segmented us, that would be painful, let's not do that. You segued.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I knew what you meant. Keep going.
Alissa Bartenbach: It's a little late tonight, but we're having fun. Into reliability. So we went through B- R. So making our way through BRAVING here. Reliability is you do what you say you'll do. Now she also says at work, this means staying aware of your competencies and limitations so you don't overpromise and are able to deliver on commitments and balance competing priorities.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Pause. Don't overpromise. It is the trap of the high achieving woman. With all of my clients, I'm constantly saying, okay, let's get really clear on your customer, the money- making model of your business, the key leverage points where you need to go all in. And everything else is kind of an ish, because you can only be extraordinary in a small number of things. And the belief that we can be extraordinary in all the things that we try to say yes to is where we get burnout.
Alissa Bartenbach: Yes, yes. So you're talking about saying what we can do at work and making sure that we don't over- commit.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Because then that's when you take work home, that's when you work on the weekends. To me, that's where it all starts because we know what we want to do with our personal lives. We don't have to say, oh, you should be kind to your husband, or you should be really good to your kids. Where we get into the burnout trap is at work, we don't know how to pick those really important leverage things, and we say yes to all this other stuff, and then we have to bring all that other stuff home with us. And that's when that other work gets done, and that's where we get completely out of whack, is my hypothesis.
Alissa Bartenbach: And probably every working woman who's listening right now is like, is there anybody who doesn't get their laptop out at night? I don't know, I haven't lived that life in a long time myself. So, I think yes, that is one point, over- committing at work. The thing I'd is maybe to step back and look at a little bit is just that first line of you do what you say you'll do. Her example goes to work, but what I really think about is what are the things I'm saying I'm going to do that I'm not doing. Like for myself?
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: You know my thing about that is, when I get caught up, I'm going to, and we're not getting truly caught up where there's this huge space where you're like, oh, today's the day that I'm going to care lovingly for myself. You got to wedge that stuff in and do it on the regular.
Alissa Bartenbach: And whether it's talking about things like I'm going to make more time for friends or, yeah, I am going to be a more present mom. One thing I would say to myself, I remember a part of me that I loved before having kids, I loved going on Saturday mornings, especially the first Saturday of the month, because everything at Goodwill's 50% off. Buy an old furniture and turning it into something new, like painting it.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: This is one of those loves that we share.
Alissa Bartenbach: Really?
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Oh, absolutely. I love taking people through my house and they're like, oh my gosh, where'd you get that? I'm like, side of the road.
Alissa Bartenbach: i have a chandelier that I found and redid, and I've taken it from a couple house. I can't let it go. I remember the-
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: The dumpster.
Alissa Bartenbach: Yeah, yeah, it was like a good find. And so, I say these things all the time about the things I'm going to do. And for me, when I went through this, I mean, the notes to myself are, before you can be reliable to anyone else, you have to be reliable with yourself. And so, I challenge anybody to say, before you take on the big conversations at work or in your relationship, or even some of the stuff you need to do, maybe you need to be more reliable with your kids or with your friends, how reliable are you to yourself?
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: One of the commitments I made, Ironically, I'm thinking now, I made this commitment when I first started teaching trust 10 years ago through the Franklin Covey Organization. And one of the commitments I made to be more present with my kids was that I was no longer going to be doing five other things in the kitchen, that when they spoke to me, and they were little, I would make eye contact and have a real conversation with them and not do that, okay, yeah, sounds good, honey, where you're just half listening and pretend listening. And it was phenomenal the impact that it had on our relationship, but boy, did it take some diligence on my part to keep that commitment to myself because I didn't come home and say, kids, I've made a commitment, I will now make eye contact. I made the promise to myself to build in our relationship in that way, and I had to hold myself to it.
Alissa Bartenbach: Wow. Wow. I'm sitting here as somebody who didn't necessarily know you at this level with little kids. So I see you with your kids who are growing up, and I think there has to be a huge reason that you have the relationship with your kids who were well on their way to grown up today. They know you stop and you listen to them and you see them and you make time for them and are present when they talk to you. So, thank goodness you held yourself to that standard back then. Man, what a difference that did.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And they have shared all of their life with me, sometimes more than I wanted to hear, quite frankly now that they're 17 and 21. But yeah, I made that investment early on, I was just thinking about that.
Alissa Bartenbach: That's awesome. That's awesome.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Now you're getting me all teary- eyed thinking about my kids. Keep going.
Alissa Bartenbach: I know. It happens so easily. So went through boundaries, reliability. Now we talk about accountability. So, this is you own your mistakes, apologize and make amends.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Own your mistakes, apologize and make amends. It sounds so simple.
Alissa Bartenbach: It does.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: It can be that simple. We overcomplicate it, don't you think?
Alissa Bartenbach: Yeah. Let's start to dig into this a little bit. What do you think is the hardest, is it owning the mistake, apologizing or making amends? What's the toughest for you?
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Depends on my mood and how tired I am. Do you not just love her? I hope by now you're thinking, yup, I need to sign up for the class. And another thing that you may want to consider if you're looking for this kind of content and to be in a robust community with some other badasses, you can join the Baddass Master Class. All of this is accessible through Badasswomenscouncil. community. Badass Masterclass is a monthly subscription, where we have Dare to Lead discussions as well as talking about the neuroscience of our health. We talk about the psychology of sales and influence and how to use our uniqueness as a superpower. It's pretty cool stuff. You should probably jump over. Badaasswomescouncil. comunity
Alissa Bartenbach: So, some of this also depends on what are you in it for.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: What's your Why? What's your purpose? What's your context?
Alissa Bartenbach: Yeah, yeah. Because to me, there are situations where lately, I've felt convicted to do some of this work by owning a mistake or apologizing when, honestly, somebody else probably didn't even expect me to, maybe didn't even need me to. But this is about living in alignment with who I say I am. And another Brene line, I'm going to sound like I'm just quoting it all, that's part of the reason I'm here, right?
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: It's all good.
Alissa Bartenbach: Is you are how you lead. And so, here I am teaching-
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: At home, at work, your life. You're always leading, right?
Alissa Bartenbach: And so here I am teaching leadership development and organization. I got to be doing it, right? I can't be saying something and doing another. And if I truly believe that people are capable of operating at a different level, and if I really want to believe that people are capable of doing this work, it's not enough for me to talk about it, I got to show them what it looks like, because I had a situation, and I'm not kidding you, two weeks before going to the Brene training, I literally told someone, I will never apologize to her. There's nothing you could do to make me apologize to her. There was someone-
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I know that look on your face sometimes.
Alissa Bartenbach: See, I just gave it then, it all came back, it was real. And that's been me my whole life. When I'm done, I am done. And it was someone a work, I felt like I kept getting this situation where I was supposed to prove who I was. And I had been killing it in a lot of areas, like in a good way. And not only was that not good enough, I felt like they couldn't wait for me to mess up. I had one small example where I introduced someone with slightly the wrong title. So instead of calling them a chief something, I called them a vice president of that same function.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: The crime.
Alissa Bartenbach: I know, right? So I was all hung up, I'm like, well, that's about her, that ain't about me, which yes, there is a time and place for that. But I knew that I needed to have a good relationship with this person. Before I was kind of thinking, well, if they don't get me, then they don't deserve to get me. Or she doesn't understand me. But I thought okay, let's see how this changes the game if I just say hey, I'm really sorry, that happened, that was never my intention. I owned that. I said the wrong thing, and I knew that's not it, and I know you worked really hard for that title. And here's the kicker, whether this means anything or not, but to me, it was tough because it was another female.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: It's interesting, isn't it?
Alissa Bartenbach: That I wish would have cut me a little slack, and guess what, she wasn't going to do it. And so, I knew, especially after reading in black and white, going through this training, I was like, oh, my gosh, I got to go back, I got to make the apology.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: It's even a part of AA, Alcoholics Anonymous, to go back and right your wrongs. There's a healing power and a strength that comes from just being raw and real and honest about I made a mistake, I need to go back and do something about it.
Alissa Bartenbach: Yeah, and part of me in agreeing to do this work is being proud that it might not be easy, pretty, or the simplest way to go, but I'm choosing to do this work. This is hoe I'm choosing to live. And I can't just choose it in parts and pieces because then I will never be living at my full potential.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: So many are burnt out because they're tired of going into a job and working in a place where they can't be authentic and make mistakes and know that there's a way to get back after making a mistake. People are just so tired of not being able to be human at work.
Alissa Bartenbach: Which is why it's actually essential for us as leaders to model this piece, because if you can go and you can say, hey, I messed this up, I've got to apologize and you work to reset that, then you're going to prevent people from covering mistakes they make up. You're going to create the opportunity for people to be able to talk about what's gone wrong and what they've learned from it and how they can do better the next time. So we've got to model it.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Yup, yup. What's the next letter?
Alissa Bartenbach: Next one. This one is tough. We're at the letter V.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Like the other ones haven't been. Do they get tougher as we go?
Alissa Bartenbach: This one is hard because everybody's going to get this because we all do it, it's called vault. V- A- U- L- T. You don't share information or experiences that are not yours to share. I need to know that my confidences are kept, and that you are not sharing with me any information about other people that should be confidential... your conversation is talking about other people, because I've done this test, and I know there's a few people in my life that really, the only stuff we were talking about was other people shared information. It's a fake way that people make connection. This vault is a fake way to create connection. You got to watch out for it.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I wrote a blog post about this several years ago. You do not connect over bitching and telling other people's stuff, that is not real connection. That's just gossip. That's just gossip.
Alissa Bartenbach: There will be somebody who this week starts saying something, well, I saw him at the store with, you know, whatever it might be. Or, gosh, why was Ted, this is the third time he's been late to the office this week. There will be something where you start, and this is when we say just stop yourself, girl. Just stop yourself, just stop because it's a hard one to break, until you really start thinking. We think, well, yeah, if I keep your stuff secret, you can trust me. But when we tell other people stuff, everyone also thinks, man, if she's talking about so and so, there's got to be a time she's talking about me.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Absolutely. Didn't we learn in seventh grade that if somebody says I won't tell anyone that that's a lie?
Alissa Bartenbach: Yeah. Right?
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Didn't we already learn this in seventh grade?
Alissa Bartenbach: So just watch for it, watch for that one.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: That's a good one. So that's vault.
Alissa Bartenbach: Integrity. Another big gauzy word, which is why we got to dig into how she defines this. So integrity. And I'd say, if you're a note taker, grab a pen, even if you're driving, stop for a second because it's a great definition. Integrity, choosing courage over comfort. It's choosing what's right over what's fun, fast or easy. And it's practicing your values, not just professing them.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Practicing your values, not just professing them. That's big.
Alissa Bartenbach: Yes. And it's choosing what's right over fast, fun or easy. That's kicker for me. That is kicker. We are moving at such a fast pace, we're on tough deadlines and under big project. And there are times I am choosing what is fast and easy maybe over what's the right thing to do.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Okay, that's a good one. Go to the next one.
Alissa Bartenbach: All right. Non- judgment. I know.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: They do get harder.
Alissa Bartenbach: So non- judgment, I can ask for what I need and you can ask for what you need. And we can talk about those things without judgment.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Now, you can ask for what you need. We did a couple episodes on relationships with Dr. Vicky Dalton, who was my old therapist, quite frankly. And one of the things that she talked a lot about that women really struggle with, and it's a key to great relationships, whether we're talking about dating, marriage or friendships, is to be able to ask for what you need. And she said most of her high achieving clients and even some of the younger girls that she was working with, that was a key area that she spent a lot of time teaching people and how to do that. And I started thinking about where did we go wrong in that, in wanting to model something different for my daughter. But I think that one's big, asking for what you need.
Alissa Bartenbach: One of the things that's interesting, if you think about it, is those of us who have trouble asking for what we need, are also the ones who sometimes get annoyed when others do it. I have a good friend who I love dearly, and one of the things I've always admired about her, but at the same time, sometimes been hard for me to accept, she's pretty good at asking for why she needs. I remember the first time we were kind of talking about what we did over the weekend. She's like, I read two books. On Saturday, I honestly, I didn't get out of bed for like four hours because I just had to finish this book. And I was thinking, no one would ever let me do that. First of all, and I was married at the time, I thought, I can't imagine what would happen if I said, hey, I'm going to lay in bed all day today and read this book. First of all, who am I to get to ask to lay in bed and to read all day.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: You wouldn't even give yourself permission to do it.
Alissa Bartenbach: Yeah, let alone, who does that? And so I've realized that number one, in order for me to even get to a place of feeling comfortable for asking what I need, I've got to also realize that other people are going to do it, and give them the freedom to do it too. I'm just not very good on either one.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: That's interesting. That's interesting. Did you talk about that with her?
Alissa Bartenbach: I have. I have. And you know what's funny, she's like, it's not a big deal. Yeah, I'm a crazy person if I don't have time by myself. Yes, my husband 100% can handle a Saturday afternoon every once in a while. I deserve that. I've been waiting for that book to come out. I was teaching all week, a really intense class, and my health and my mental stability relies on me having some down and alone time. And what's been great, and this is how I know I'm in a better place, I'm growing, is that, you know who I have a lot of conversations with about what I need?
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Who?
Alissa Bartenbach: My kids.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Yeah, that's where I started too.
Alissa Bartenbach: My kids. Just in the same way, we talk about the stuff, and we talk about us leaders, you have to be able to model this. I'm having these conversations with my kids, and I'm saying things like, you know what, mom really needs an hour to just rest a little bit. I want to have a little bit of time to listen to one of these podcasts, or you know what, I need a little bit of time in my room to pray. Even the other day, I said, mom used to love to paint. I'm going to ask that you guys play in the backyard while I'm in the garage because I just want 30 minutes to paint. And what was so funny, my son said, " Since when do you paint?" And I was like, " Since before you were born." And it hasn't happened since. That's the point, buddy.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: That's a perfect example of I'm trying to be all of who I've always been and introduce this back in, and it had been eight years because he just turned eight.
Alissa Bartenbach: Yeah, that's the point, dude.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Oh, that's beautiful.
Alissa Bartenbach: One of the reasons that I haven't felt so bad in asking for them sometimes is because, number one, I watched a single mom who still does today, work really, really hard and not ask for much. I pretty sure she'd tell you today that's not the healthiest best way to go, because it didn't model for me, I'm having to do this work now so that hopefully my kids, they're my friend who's like, yeah, that's a no brainer, I can ask for that. Yeah, I deserve that. Yeah, I'm worth four hours on a Saturday, of whatever that looks like.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I talked about that on another episode about self- care. One of the things that really drove home self- care for me was I wanted to model it for my daughter, and to have that level of accountability to ask for that, and to just make it a part of how we lived, not something that was special or that I was going to feel guilty about, was big, and it served her really well. She's good at boundaries I think partly because of that.
Alissa Bartenbach: Yes. And something I'd like to point out and I do totally want to give kudos, I joke with you all the time, I'm raising two kids with my mother. It's crazy, and I'm sure we'll talk more about that at some point.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: That could be its own series.
Alissa Bartenbach: Oh, of course. And it's been a juggle, right? I'm co- parenting with my mom, it's interesting. And there's a huge shift that happened for us a few months back. And to be honest, I'm going to have to talk to her about this because I haven't. But she started saying something to me when she would leave. So a lot of times we're passing, like she's coming in my house and I'm hitting the road to travel out of town for work. Occasionally, we have those times where she'll drop them off maybe after school or something like that, or maybe she'll pick them up and take them out for ice cream so I can work for an hour or something like that. And she started doing this thing, where before she would leave, she'd say, is there anything you need from me? And I don't think that ever once I've said, yes. In my mind sometimes they've been like, yeah, can I have, you know, like something, crosstalk. You got a big bottle of wine in your bag, or yeah, two week vacation. All kinds of things. But every time I've just thought, no, but thanks for asking. And so, just as much as we have to become braver about non- judgment of others when they ask, but braver around asking for what we need, also work on helping other people become braver by asking.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I just had this happen today as a matter of fact. Kate Porter is an amazing young woman who's interning with me in the Badass Womens Council brand and doing great stuff with video production and marketing and social media, shout out Kate, she's amazing. She's a junior in college and she's learning and growing as a high achieving female in training. Just taken on her role as an intern, and I said to her one day, " There's going to come a week I'm going to forget to pay you, and you're going to have to tell me." And she said, " Oh, no." And I said, " Oh, yeah, because I'm going to forget. I'm just going to tell you right now, this is a new behavior and I don't have the setup as a part of the accounting system. This is just me remembering to do it." So today, she texted me and she was like, her text I think said, " I hate this, but you told me to do it, I don't think I got paid last week." And so I immediately texted her back and said, " Yay you," because she courageously, and I know it killed her, and she probably thought about it for three days before she finally did it. And sure enough, I forgot to pay her. And I said, " I'm so proud of you." And she said, " You hold me accountable in a good way." I thought, these are the things that we need to teach each other because we both got a lot out of that.
Alissa Bartenbach: And let's go ahead and do everybody a solid because somebody is going to do this and they're going to reach out and they're going to ask for what they need, and nobody's going to go, yay, I'm so proud of you. When this happens, yay yourself. When you find yourself and you ask, even if you don't get it, be proud of yourself that you asked, because the more you do it, the more comfortable you'll get doing it, and then the more people will realize, and you'll realize that you deserve it. So just start, start and yeah yourself.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Absolutely. And if you need a group yay, reach out, message us. We'll yay you.
Alissa Bartenbach: We'll cheer all day long.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: We will. We absolutely will.
Alissa Bartenbach: Okay, we got one more.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Okay, let's do it.
Alissa Bartenbach: Okay, you ready?
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Yep.
Alissa Bartenbach: Okay, so generosity. So extending the most generous interpretation to the intentions, words and actions of others.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I love generosity. We're hardwired for it. That's a part of belonging, which is why Brene is talking about it. And I believe that generosity's biggest challenge is that we as a society are buried under busy. I don't think oftentimes it's because we don't want to be generous or we don't think of things in the way that we can give of our time and our energy and our connection and our trust and our boundaries, all of those things, I think it's because we are too busy, and we're just buried under this frenetic pace and so much of our goodness gets lost.
Alissa Bartenbach: Yes, yes. This was a tough one for me because one of the things she talks about in this principle is the idea that people are doing the best they can. And she asked us all in the room, raise your hand if you think that every single person in this world is doing the best they can. And I had one person in particular, let me tell you, that came to mind where I thought there's no way in the world that's his best. There's no way. And we got pretty deep into this conversation around generosity. And I'll leave you with this thought, is that sometimes we can live a happier life just choosing to believe that.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Absolutely.
Alissa Bartenbach: It doesn't mean it's right, but it's saying, okay, yeah, I am going to operate that way, I am going to choose to believe you're doing your best because it allows you to show up in a much better way. And in all honesty, it's a lot more of a free way to live that's worth giving a chance.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And I know we're going to talk about empathy at some point on another episode. It's how I evoke empathy when I'm really frustrated. So when I have a relationship or a situation where I think, oh my gosh, can that really be their best, I remind myself that there's some pain, there's something in their lives that are creating that situation where that really is their best today. And I've often said, and many people have said this, hurt people tend to hurt others. So when I feel hurt by someone's actions, I can evoke empathy by reminding myself that there's some hurt there that's causing that in them, and that really is the best that day.
Alissa Bartenbach: Yes. And you know what, the other part is, there are some days I need people to believe I'm doing the best I can, because I have failed in some hard ways, and I've made some big mistakes. I've definitely not ever been consistent as showing up as my best self in every situation to every person. So there's some days I need people to believe that I'm doing my best too.
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I love that. That's a great way to end talking about connection. We can give each other grace in that way.
Alissa Bartenbach: For sure. And I'm excited, hopefully people will tell us, what was it like, what did they try? What were some of the BRAVING things they did? How did it work?
Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Yeah, send us some messages. Give us some feedback. We'll have, Instagram's a great way to do that, there's always post about the various episodes. So, comment in the post about this episode about how it's gone for you.
Alissa Bartenbach: Thanks so much. Make it a great day.
This is brave work! What is OUR part in trust?
- Leaving the blame game.
- Getting honest with yourself.
What is your go to to gain "control"? Alissa and I, we clean our closets!
Alissa takes on the "lawn lady" to set boundaries.
Choosing courage over comfort, choosing what's right over what's fun, fast or easy. Practicing your values not just professing them.
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