Peace, Purpose and Prosperity for Male Leaders with Jim Bishop of Conjunction Leadership

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: This is, Write Your Own Story: Three Keys to Rise and Thrive in Life and Business. I'm your host, Rebecca Fleetwood Hession. On the show today we have Jim Bishop, who has been a friend, a business partner. Actually, originally met him as a client when I was working for FranklinCovey. What I love about Jim is he is trained as a scientist, spent many years in the agricultural world including F- F- A, Elanco Animal Health. And then, at Eli Lilly and Company working with humans, but he is well versed in a strategy, execution, all the things that I talk about for the business needs of control, measure, and optimize. But Jim is equally as focused on our human needs and is going to talk to us today about what he's hearing from the men that he works with as a coach, and helping them discover more of their human needs in getting to the heart of the matter. Here we go. Welcome to the show.

Jim Bishop: Thanks, Rebecca. Thanks for having me.

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: You're one of the very few, yet to be far more men on the show. So, congratulations for being one of the early ones.

Jim Bishop: Yeah. Well, I'll try to set the pegs for everyone else to follow.

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: We have made a big transition here on the show from the previous Badass Womens Council talking predominantly to and for women to write your own story because the topic of striving to thriving, that is the book I wrote called, Write Your Own Story, is not just a challenge for women. And so, today, we're going to talk about how that shows up for men. Before we do that, would you take a minute and just talk about why you named your company, Conjunction Leadership? Because I think it's really insightful.

Jim Bishop: Yeah, it's a unique story. It all goes back to the original onset of deciding to leave corporate America after about 20 years of experience, and wrestling with what the biggest purpose that I could achieve, and how can I have the biggest impact in the world in what was going on. The world was upside down at the time, we were just entering COVID. Life was crazy. My business coach asked me at the time, " Do you want to be in this business segment, or this business segment?" Presented me with two options and I couldn't give her a clear answer at that point in time. And I sat back and wrestled with it for a little while, probably about a week honestly. And I went back to her and I said, " This is the hardest decision. Not because of the business that I want to be in, but I've wrestled with these decisions my entire life." And in 2020 as we all experienced, I saw a lot of people wrestling with those. Which side of the aisle do you fall on politically? Or where do we believe in vaccination or not vaccination? And then, what are we thinking about all the social justice causes? And people were really trying to put people into boxes. And I went away on a little solopreneur retreat for myself. Walked in the woods, got some clarity. It just really melted my soul. The thing that really made the biggest difference for me is when I didn't put an either, or in between those two separate answers. And when I put the and in between there, it was much easier for me to get to a third option that presented me with new solutions. And that was the uniqueness that I could offer the world. And when I looked back at it, that was my entire story. I was a middle child. I had an older brother. Older sister, younger brother. I didn't know if I was a rural kid or an urban kid. I didn't know if I played basketball or did 4- H. And I looked at all these decisions and I thought, I can do both of them many times all the way through my life. And then, when I got clients asking questions, I saw them wrestling with the same thing. As people advance to a certain level in their education, or their career, their experience, their brain just naturally split things into either or options, because it's easier to frame up your decision. Frame up your experience. And I saw them wrestling with how do I be a leader in this environment today with a concern and compassion for social justice causes? How do I make sure that people keep jobs with businesses crashing all around us in 2020? And how do I show up with empathy and concern? And I kept asking them, " What is the and?" And when we got there, I'm like, " That's the simple answer for this whole thing is to name it Conjunction, because it's about the conjunctions you choose that helps determine your uniqueness and your purpose in the world." Secondarily, I also just have a large passion for believing that we have the opportunity and we have the right to become a better human through the work that we do. Not just to do good work, but to become a better human. But in order for that to happen, we have to put the and in between because a leader has to go first in that experience. The culture isn't just going to create an environment where people become better humans in their workplace. We organize for efficiency. We don't organize for allowing people to grow into their authentic humanity. And if a leader purposes to go first about becoming a better human, they can make the path much, much easier for the people who follow. So, I believe we all have a right to become a better human and a leader needs to go first.

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: What I love about us doing similar work is when we have conversations, it just reminds me that this is a universal need. And many of us, you and I believe that God has given these similar ideas to solve for this challenge. Because I talk about it in terms of business as human and the business needs are to control, measure, optimize. Which you and I work together on executing strategy on many projects in our previous life. But as humans, our needs are personal, emotional, and social and it doesn't need to be an either, or. In fact, connecting those is I believe where we're headed in terms of business and leadership. Exactly what you said that we can have thriving lives by using our unique talents in business and in work. And you modeled exactly what I ask of my clients is reflection and connection. You were posed with the question and you said, " Hold up. I need to reflect and go inside and really think about what this means for me. And then, I'll come back and connect with what I think I can and should do." So, ooh, it just gets me excited.

Jim Bishop: Yeah, absolutely.

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: So, you're out as an executive coach helping others do this kind of work, moving from, in my words, striving to thriving. And as we've talked over, especially the last few months, you've shared with me some of your real concerns for men in leadership don't get as much of the opportunity and platform like I have been able to provide for women to come together and really have these authentic, vulnerable conversations. But yet, you've opened the door for some people to have those one- on- one with you. What are some of the things you're hearing from your clients that really illustrate what we talk about as striving here?

Jim Bishop: Yeah, yeah. Let's step back just a moment and say, " How did we get here?" And then, we can enter that. And I think it's just a really confusing time to be an executive male in leadership, and not confusing because they don't know how to lead. It's confusing because maybe the times have shifted and they don't know how to lead in the times. The whole empowerment movement behind our women in leadership and women in executive leadership particularly, we have many men who are advocating and being allies. Yet, at the same time, unsure of what that means, and how to advocate appropriately, and how to be an ally for their women counterpart. Likewise, much of the business needs as you've listed today, they can handle those things, but the personal needs inside of the workplace have completely shifted. Most of my X- Y colleagues have just not spent as much time thinking about where their emotional state and where are they feeling. Most of the time, they probably guarded themselves through that experience because it's not healthy for them to show emotion in leadership sometimes. Too much emotion can alter stock prices. Too much emotion might set things on fire inside of the organization, might get rumors started. These are all the myths that I think men have told themselves over time in leadership, and probably even been socialized to experience that. And in today's world, post 2020, everybody has more personal need in the workplace. And when we're connecting more virtually, it's just harder for men to read those emotions because they've not been trained in it. We've not been schooled in it. And we generally don't sit around a cup of coffee and talk about our feelings all that often. And what I'm seeing happening with a lot of the guys that I'm working with today is just that they know they need to do this and they probably have women mentors who are helping them learn this, it's just not a safe spot for them to sit around and talk about it publicly with a large group of people. And they haven't allowed it to be a safe spot yet. I get a lot of D-Ms and a lot of one- off messages from people that like, " Dude, something you just posted really resonated with me." Or, " Something that I heard you say in a talk really resonated with me." But they're not likely to go public with what that resonation was. I find there's a lot of creepers, if you want to call it, out there in the social sphere. And every now and then, I get a few likes, I get a few comments, and people will follow me. They'll even request coaching and ask about it. And then, we get into the conversation about what is it and how do we do it. And my belief is we have to look at the whole person first before we really look at some of your business challenges. And when I start talking about their personal self, and where they're at, and emotional presence, and emotional contagion, and all those things that go along with it, they really start getting nervous because they're not so sure yet that they're ready to let somebody in on the inside of what's happening. So, I see that as probably our biggest challenge today. Now, I say that, but there are men coming all over the place. I feel like it's an uprising almost. And we're almost in the brink of a movement where men are saying, " Okay, I have to lead differently in this environment. There's no going back. The old days are not coming back. Command and control leadership is not the way that we're going to go." Distributed leadership, and decentralized leadership, empowered leadership, all these adjectives that we're using now, I think men have just recognized, okay. For a while, I feel like they were probably fighting it, now, I feel like they've accepted it and they're in the place of integration. How do we move forward?

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I'm calling it the age of humanity. The Industrial Age has been dead for a while. Just the movement and the awakening is, oh, yeah, it really is over. And I feel the response to 2020 really falls into the human response of psychology, flight, or fawn, or freeze. And so, we had 2020 was the trauma. Survival, isolation, forced reflection, global pause. Which then led this into what's the response? So, the flight was the great resignation. There was millions of people that were just like, " I'm out." And largely women because of the additional responsibilities that they had during that time. And then, you went quiet quitting, which was the fawn or freeze. Right? And many leaders who were just going off old patterns of what worked before went into fight mode, and they went into control mode, and they went into get back to the office. Email trackers to make sure you're really working, and that's not going to work. In fact, none of those are going to work. So, it really does take a new age of leadership to move forward, because human needs are no longer negotiable. People are saying, " I'll leave if my needs aren't being met." So, I love the work that we are doing, quite frankly, to help leaders lead in this new age.

Jim Bishop: Organizationally, the culture is shifting. But even personally, I see men especially stepping into this new portal. And there's some wrestling and there's some rumblings in their heart because at least my empathy for them, I've gone through a similar journey myself and I see some of what's happening. But There's this kind of midlife pivot, if you want to call it that, where the striving for so long has been about attainment, or conquering, or acquisition, or even the monetary aspect of achieving, right? Watching the paycheck move and the levels in the hierarchy. And yet, at some point, I think 2020, that pause, that reflection, and then, the post- traumatic stress syndrome that probably came out of that, a lot of guys were sitting there going, "I can't go public and tell people I'm not happy with what I have because I've worked so hard to get what I've got." And there was this moment of incongruence in their being like, "I think I want more. I think I want to make greater impact. I think I want to have a lasting legacy beyond just my title. I think the paycheck is important, but I think I'd rather have purpose. I've provided and provided for my family and I've got the car, I've got the house, I've got the mortgage. I've got all the things, but I don't have the peace." And in that middle of that rumbling is where we put that and. You can have those things and be grateful for them, and have purpose and clarity in who you are as a person. You don't have to be ungrateful for having them you and-

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Or, feel guilty for having them.

Jim Bishop: Yeah. Part of the social rumbling we're seeing going on around us is we have greater concern and empathy for other people. That's great. And many people also feel shame because they might have more, or they might have been blessed in a different way. And instead of using that as their platform, many of them are like, " Maybe I just need to chuck it all and start all over." But in the middle of all of that, put a pause, let's reflect. Let's get some understanding of who you are as a person, and this isn't a crisis. This isn't a midlife type of crisis moment. This is almost a becoming moment where you get to step into the portal of eternity and say, " How am I going to make the biggest impact?" When I can work with a guy in that space, that liminal space, it's so amazing to see how their heart comes on fire, and they do become a much more naturally centered, and grounded, and emotional person. It's just the outcome, it's not the input. But we have to teach them a little bit about what's going on the inside so it doesn't control and direct all their behaviors, because if they don't understand it, they just react to it. And they're like, " I feel afraid," or" I feel scared," or" I feel nervous." They're not saying that and they probably don't even have the words to describe it, but once they get the words to describe it, they're like, "I feel a little scared in these certain times, but I know I've solved hard things and done hard crap in the past, and I'll do hard crap in the future, so."

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I love the idea and I call it story than money, and you articulate it as peace and purpose can also come with prosperity. The and of that is, to me, the most beautiful life, because the more prosperous, the more financial opportunity you have, the more you can fund that peace, and purpose, and serving to other humans. And I think that's the combo pack that we're all looking for. And in fact, we just had Nick Smarrelli on the show who is one of the most successful leaders in the Indianapolis small and midsize market, fastest growing company for 10 years. Achieve, achieve, award, award. And he had that reflective space and said, " You know what? I need to take a pause and think about what I want to do next in my life." In the spotlight kind of guy, and he said it was and still is a bit scary to figure out where he's going next and letting it unfold. And I love that he, as somebody that has been so revered as such a great leader is doing this so publicly because I think he's paving the way for others. Especially those that you're working with saying, " Oh, wait. I might want some reflection pause time to see what bubbles up."

Jim Bishop: Yeah, there's something magnetic about a person who steps into their authentic power, and they don't have to become bold or audacious about speaking it. You just see it. You see a grounded presence in them. So, if it's Nick, if it's others who've gone before, I think those people who are in that space of almost entering it and that may be a little afraid to step through it because it is scary and unknown, they see something on the other side and they're like, " I want what that guy has but I don't know how to get it." Right? And that square in the space of coaching, you know this better than most, but you can't train people through this. You can't put them through a workshop. You can't give them a journal that says, " Here's your how- to." What you really have to do is be there with them during this journey so that they can reflect their real experience and their authentic concern so they can get to the other side of it, because everybody's other side is completely different. There is no one path that is the same for every person.

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Identifying someone's uniqueness, I call it the reflection piece of coaching, which is I hold up the mirror to help them see them and it is the most rewarding work I've ever done in my life. It's such sacred ground when somebody does take that leap of faith with you to go inside and look at themselves. That's a big deal.

Jim Bishop: There's unlimited instruments out there that help people gain some sort of awareness or 360 that help people get feedback. And I see all kinds of guys saying, " Hey, I got this feedback and I need to respond." Or, " Here's what I need for my next level. Here's what they are telling me I'm going to need to be to get..." And so long, most of their development has been focused on what I would call behavior modification. I've learned how to get better feedback. I can make sure that I don't show my emotions in the middle of a board meeting or those kind of things. And they're wanting that, But really what they're asking for is how do I change some of my being? Not my doing. How do I change the essence of who I am, and how do I show up? And if we can use instruments maybe, but most of the time, it's just helping them step into that space of saying, "What does being look like for you?" Instead of how do I react to the rest of the world around me who says, "A good leader is shaped or looked like this," and they don't know how. They can do behavior modification, but it doesn't get them the lasting impact that they really want.

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: It won't get to the heart of it. Eliza Kingsford is a business partner, and also a Thrive Guide with my work with Rise and Thrive. That's the work that we do with our people in this experience, and we're going to be doing some of that work at a retreat later this week is get at, who do I need to be in 2023? And I just had this conversation with a gentleman yesterday who is a C- E- O of an amazing company, and we're looking at what's his path forward this year and it's going to require some changes. And we just had the same conversation and I said, " I want you to spend some time asking yourself who do you need to be, and what do you need to believe about yourself in this role moving forward for this year?" And they know it, and they feel it, and then they look at you like, " Ugh, this is..." And I'm like, " I know. We're going there and it's going to be fine. I'm right here." But that's where we got to start.

Jim Bishop: Yeah, absolutely. I get a lot of calls too from companies who say, " We want to change our culture." And they're starting all the way at the other end of the continuum where they want the mission, vision, values. Okay, fine. But then, they also want to say, " Here's how we're going to work differently." New ways of working is a popular topic these days, right? And while I understand their need of wanting to change the culture, because what they're trying to do is make a difference for the most amount of people, what they haven't yet realized is when they change the culture, or put those words on paper, or on brass backs, it's going to bump up against so many leadership paradigms in people's minds that there's going to be a lot of insecurity and fear. And when there's insecurity and fear, people will not adopt what you've just written and said you wanted to become. They have to get comfortable with becoming something first so that the individuals can change, the teams can change, and then, ultimately, the culture is an outcome. I'm willing to listen to all those conversations and I get a lot of calls from well- meaning executives either in H- R, or in a C- E- O seat saying, " Hey, we know we've got to change our culture. Come tell me how to do it." And I'm like, " Okay, let's have dinner and let's talk about you, because that's how you're going to do it." And you have more experience working with the female population than I do, I think they've just more naturally embraced this. Because one, I think women are just better at multitasking and they're able to keep multiple things happening at one time. So, changing the culture and operating a business, totally got that. For guys, we're a little more compartmentalized. So, when we see the numbers on the metrics showing up, we're knowing we're moving in that direction, but these don't have metrics. There's not any hard things to show and measure about how you're changing your culture. It's the softer, more intuitive stuff. And so, I see most guys kind of come compartmentalizing those and saying, " Hey, we've hired somebody to help us with our culture. I'll keep managing the business metric, and together, we're going to make this thing happen." And I'm like, " This has to happen with you first. You have to show people that you can distribute power and that you can decentralize decisions. If you can't, none of that other stuff is going to happen either."

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: The number of times you get a H- R person, whatever the title is, who has been tasked with culture as an assignment in a project, and when they come to me, I just see the look in their eyes. And same thing, I'm like, " This is not a project. Sorry." And then, the leader who's not paying much attention to the project they've delegated thinking that's being handled when in fact, they're the one creating or tearing down the culture that's trying to be built. So, we could tell some really interesting stories, both of us, about how that doesn't work so well.

Jim Bishop: Yeah, a lot of what not to- dos, probably.

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Let's go through a couple of those. Either what not- to-dos or what to-dos. So, my hope is that because we've had a predominantly female audience, that some of the women listeners will share this with their leaders, their husbands, their uncles, and start to bring more men into this conversation. So, what are some tips that you have that are practical that men could jump into? Which kind of goes against everything we just said about you can't do just behavior modification, but there is some things you can do from a reflection perspective. What insights do you have?

Jim Bishop: Yeah, absolutely. Ultimately, behavior is influenced by, as you said, your identity and your beliefs. Right? So, I always start there. Maybe not on the first couple coaching sessions, right? That feels a little therapeutic if we're starting to talk about-

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Trust, safe place. Yes.

Jim Bishop: And eventually, people are recognizing the outer shell of this and saying, " I know what behaviors aren't working today. I know that my command and control leadership isn't happening the way I want, and I can't possibly see everybody as much as I want to." So, the behaviors, they have a pretty good handle with that. Their beliefs probably are the next thing that we need to dive into because belief is where your behaviors come from. Right? So, if you believe people can't be trusted, you're much more likely to be a command and control leader as an example. And where did that belief that people can't be trusted come from? And it may have come from maybe from childhood wound. Probably it came from-

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Often.

Jim Bishop: Yeah. A lot of times, it probably also came from your years of experience in the trenches. And if we look at who's leading organizations today, they are not the millennials yet. They are not the Gen Xers, they're not the Gen Y. They're probably still on the 50 to 60- year- old sometimes, and with the belief system of what was happening when they grew up through leadership. The Jack Welch state as an example, that's what leadership would model. That's the identity that they hold is I am a good leader if I know more and if I can tell people what to do more. Unless they shift that identity to saying, " How does that need to change?" Their belief won't change, and their behavior won't change. So, some really practical things just to spend some time thinking about your past lifeline experiences. Why call them the highs and the lows? We just go through those. The Richter scale of your life, if you will, so that you see which moment of time impressed upon you the joy, and which times of your life impressed upon you some of them have not so fun stuff. And as you reflect on those, then you gain an understanding of how did I become me, and how did my choices influence my outcomes? Those are things that most guys, especially executive men who have a really full calendar, who have given themselves a lot of dopamine hits by clicking send on button, they haven't necessarily given them the space to sit there and say, " How did I become me, and how do I pivot from this?" So, that's a strong how- to. Sometimes you can do that on your own. Other times you're going to need to do that with a guide who's probably prompting you and making you feel slightly more uncomfortable than you otherwise would make yourself. I think something not to do is to not overlook those warning signals that are already going off. Maybe word that in a different way, but just watch your dashboard and the dashboard is coming from here now. It's not coming from the visual line of sight, it's coming from the heart space. It's that stuff where people are feeling a little more anxious, or they're find themselves maybe not wanting to get up as early in the morning and go to it. Or they maybe feel like the battery is draining a little bit faster than it should, and at the end of the day, I just need to numb or recharge with something that's probably not actually recharging. It's just distracting. Instagram scrolling, a lot of LinkedIn posting.

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Bourbon.

Jim Bishop: Numbing medication. Bourbon. Yeah, it's all devices, right? Those are the warning signals you're not who you used to be. And if people look at that instead of what I'm standing to lose in this journey, I'm losing part of myself, but they pivot their brain to saying, " What am I about ready to gain?" Oh, my goodness, so many good things can happen. There is a whole world of things that they can gain, but probably in that space, and I remember it too, you're looking at, I might lose my title. I might lose my reputation. I might lose some of the respect that I've worked so hard to gain. Instead of saying, " I'm going to get tremendous amount of respect in a different way if I become a heart- centered leader versus a head- centered leader. I'm going to gain purpose, and clarity, a vision and I'll have greater prioritization in my life. My to- do list is going to be much more focused because I know exactly which things I need to do versus all the stuff I need to respond to." And if I can help people just slightly see what they hope to gain through this experience, it's so much more rewarding than looking at it like, " I am about ready to lose my stuff."

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Well, because your brain is always operating off of old patterns, and so, you're asking them to cross what I call the sea of uncertainty, which is I don't know if this is going to work out. And our brain sees that as red alert, red alert, this is dangerous, because I've always done it this way and I know what the rewards and I know what the achievement feels like. And so, you're leading them across this uncertainty to say, " But let's picture what could be, and how it could feel differently still having prosperity, but also having peace and purpose, so let's build that together." And that's a new way of being, thinking, behaving, all the things.

Jim Bishop: In my corporate practice, if you will, I've worked primarily with executives, people that have been at the senior management suite or C- suite. I get a lot of phone calls from people who are at the beginning stages of their journey too, the 20, 30- year- olds who are looking for purpose and passion in their life. And they're going about it so diligently to say, " If I don't achieve it and I don't get on the 40 by 40 list, I'm not going to be successful." They're trying to start side gigs, and side hustles, and spread themselves really thin to hope that one of these things sticks and makes them come alive on the inside. And my message to that audience is just time is your biggest teacher at this point in your journey. You have the gift of time. And if you approach your life at this point as if it's a series of internships, and you're just going and collecting the experience and tucking it away, you really don't know what the internship has taught you, and you really don't know what you're supposed to do with it, but you've got this nugget of wisdom. And someday, that satchel of wisdom nugget is just going to be poured out and you're going to be like, " I understand why all of this is happening, and I understand who I am." Yet, I see we have the comparison culture going on in Instagram or whatever else, and if I'm not as good, or as fast, or as smart, or my salary isn't as high as, I'm not successful. And I'm like, "Whoa, success is a whole bigger different story when you're on this side of the pivot than when you're on the other side." And so, if I have one message, we're all in the journey, we're just able to see it from a different vantage point. And I think if you're in the earlier stages of your journey, time is your biggest teacher. And if you're in the later stages of your journey, time is still your biggest teacher. So, let time work in your favor and learn how to embrace it rather than be threatened by it because it scares.

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Just coming out of holiday season, I'm always cognizant of when well- intended family ask questions of late teens, early twenties about what are you doing with your life? And I immediately cringe and feel like I need to save them, because this undue pressure that they're supposed to have life figured out is so damaging. And it's unintentional. Aunt Mary and Uncle Joe, they meant well, but I can watch the look on those kids, young adults' faces and then, I can watch them detach from the conversation so they don't have to feel it again. And I just, oh, I want to just go out and tell all the well- meaning family, " Let it play out." And sometimes I have to remind my mom, because she is a good, loving person, but cares about my 21 and 24- year- old and thinking, are they going to be okay? And I have to remind her, when I was their age, I was a bartender on M- T- V's very first spring break and didn't know shit about what I was going to do. But what I've learned through that process, put me on the stage with Dr. Stephen R. Covey, and now I wrote a book and have a 401- K. We don't know what's going to happen. Just let it go. Just let it go. As long as they're good humans, they'll figure it out.

Jim Bishop: The subtle art of knowing how to ask a question. The intention is just tell me who you are as a person. Tell me where you want to be going and your dreams and your aspirations. But we often word that in what do you want to do in five years? And we all hated that interview question. It doesn't matter. And we all heard many people well intentioned asking it. So, just answer it with who you are as a person, and what you're currently learning, and where you hope to use that someday but all the stuff.

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: This is so good and we could keep going and going. In fact, I hope that you'll come back and be a regular on the show, and just tell us how things are going as you're doing this important work. Any final words of wisdom? How can people get ahold of you? I'm very hopeful and believe that there are men out there listening to this that think, I want to talk to this guy. I want to know more. How can people get ahold of you?

Jim Bishop: Yeah, I'm on the social media channels. It's not my biggest joy in life and it's also... You'll see that when you get on there. The biggest part of it is just on LinkedIn, that's probably where I maintain the greatest presence. There's good articles and stuff that I surf and I pull in and some things I've even authored on there. And then, just anyone wants to email me, Jim @ conjunction leadership. com. Pretty simple, pretty easy. I respond to most of those pretty regularly, so send me your questions or your concerns. Some of people are, I know they're lurking. I know they're out there and they're sometimes afraid to ask. It's a safe spot. I'm a no judgment type of person here because we've all gone through it. We've all been in places where we wish we wouldn't have, and we all just sometimes needed a friend to listen and a hand to help pull us up when we couldn't. That's again, my biggest joy. The worst part of it is when those guys don't reach out, and then it's too late. It may be a failed job, it may be a failed marriage. God forbid people choose to make drastic decisions with their life. And I see that particularly as a crisis in my male colleagues right now. The isolation and the feeling of not knowing how to move through this space can become so great that either they just completely numb and pull themself out of the game, or they drastically do something that alters their life course and just chuck it all to the wind and go become a bartender in Tahiti. Those are the moments when I'm like, " There's impact wasted." And if there's any message for any of the guys that are out there listening is your impact is not done if you are not dead. You still have breath in your lungs and you still have the opportunity to do all kinds of amazing things. No matter where you've come from, no matter what you've done, no matter how bad the voices in your head are, just reach out. So, if it's a D- M on LinkedIn, I'm here. If it's just an email that you want to drop and just say, " Hey, I need a guy to listen." I'm here as well, so.

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I love that. We talk about V-R- I; value, relevance, and impact and being able to use your story to do those things. And what's so great about you holding space for these clients and these connections is you were trained as a scientist, worked in corporate America with strategy execution. You can talk control, measure, optimized like the best of them, but you really just have a heart to bring in the other side of that conversation and create a really great, and so thank you for the work that you do.

Jim Bishop: Thank you, Rebecca. It's been awesome.

Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Thanks for listening to this episode. I would love it if you would leave a rating and a review on Apple Podcast, and then, go to wethrive. live. First thing you'll see is a place to drop your email and join the movement. I'll send you tools that you can use to thrive in life and business. Hey y'all, fun fact, if you like the music for the podcast, that is actually my son, Cameron Hession. And I would love it if you would go to Spotify and iTunes and follow him and download some of his other music. My personal favorite's T- V Land.