Fear is Your Frenemy. Make it Your Friend

Fear and shame, prevent learning and cut off connection. There a brick wall from everything you want on this episode. We're talking about the thing. No one wants to talk about beer, this is a content created in partnership with sheer Genius. I'm Katie, your producer, and these are your house, 7 Bramhall. The question you should be asking yourself, is whether or not you should do something, not whether or not, you can because the failure comes in the form of doing it and killing yourself to do it for what reason,

And Margaret Kelsey, you don't have to incorporate every piece of feedback that you've ever received in your entire life because we're all doing it differently to we're all making it up as we go along.

Okay. Margaret I have a question for you answer for you. I think this is particularly something that has been more top-of-mind since you and I both started Consulting and advisory don't you think it's crazy that everyone thinks we know what we're doing?

Yes. Yes. That's my answer answer for you. Yes. I was talking to someone last night who is going through some work challenges and she was processing in a really like introspective way. It was like a really kind of a rewarding conversations participated but I sure this a lot. I think there's this idea that like I'm confident and like syrup

Isn't like I have a full you don't even like people always think I have a plan and they think I know what I'm doing. And I just want to say

No, and not many people do and everything. I was going to say, no, but he does, but I need and I'll maybe there's some people out there that have a plan, but do you think that it comes from you really feeling like, no matter what? You'll be able to figure it out but you don't have it figured out but you have a confidence that you can figure it out.

So, it's not necessary that I have confidence that I can figure it out. It's this inherent need to figure it out. No matter what. You know, the thing that my mom said to me, I experienced this. Of burnout self-inflicted when I was in Boston, and I was just trying too hard on every front. And I remember talking to my mom on the phone and she said, Devin

the question you're asking yourself is whether or not you can do it but she said, name me a time in your life where you failed

It just felt like you try to do something. I didn't work.

Never, she said, the question you should be asking yourself, is whether or not you should do something, not whether or not, you can because the failure comes in the form of doing it and killing yourself to do it, for what reasons, your point. I think, after a certain. Of time you get enough wraps in that, you know that somehow you can make it happen. Usually, by finding other people to help you and give you the Brute Force.

I don't know. What do you like? What has been your experience? As I say particular as a leader and trying to lead.

With confidence.

But not really knowing exactly. Like not always having the answer but having to like, have the answer. Yeah, I consider myself a relatively self-aware person and I got feedback. My last full-time role that I came across as calm and confident. And that's not how I experienced my own work, and my own relationship with work. I feel frantic I feel chaotic. I feel a lot of self-doubt. And so then I feel like a kicked off introspection in myself, look like a hat. Like what are the behaviors that I'm doing that? Come across unflappable play. Think like a, it's a helpful thing to know that you will be okay, no matter what think? It's probably tapping into that, right? Tapping into this. Like deep, understanding that, like, regardless of the worst-case outcome, you will be okay and knowing that deep deep down and having that kind of sense of self is probably how it manifests and also being around the block a couple times. I think I've now seen so much change.

So much trash and organizations that it it kind of comes across as like a course. That's happening course and everything is changing all of the time. I think you've nailed it around the determination. I think that does portray a significant amount of confidence. You know, if you have something to put in front of you and you say, I will do this. I will figure this out. I think that's what sort of makes people experience confidence in you. I remember the two examples of this that are like, not work-related but it's Novella straight-up perfectly.

anytime I've gone to volunteer, like I walk into a situation where I'm unfamiliar with everything, the people, the job to be done at cetera until somebody tells me a job to be done, and I start do it and

every single time I end up working with a group of people who eventually come to me and say, okay, so what should I do

I like I'm not in charge and they're like, really

When I was, when I was in Middle School, I was 11 years old. My mom sent my sister. And I to this Farm a few times over in Natick and they put you together with a small group of people. And you go do various aspects of running the farm throughout the summer. There were to sort of cohorts, and I was in the second one, but then threw the first one. I now have a new team of these two boys, my age still. And I remember the first task the first day was, we had to move a pile of cow poop and I grab the Pitchfork walks to the top of the pile and I was like, okay, you over there, you over there and I'm going to take this, isn't that a metaphor of startup? Life is standing on a pile of cow poop interacting.

People are what?

And they just, they loved it. They were like, what? Like the whole summer and they like the last day of us will sleep over at the yard is huge camping experience and they were like my buzz. Like they love me there. Like we're going to be busy cuz I just told them what to do when they're like this is fine, you know.

tell me about the

because I mean now what does podcast I've worked with you, I was at like a before we've never worked together and now it's officially works on a project with you. And there are moments where I I see that veneer crack and I see the self-doubt creeping in. And so talk to me about talking about those, those parts, those parts not to just put it right back on, you know, I mean, a lot like my senior leadership, team animals, definitely saw this more and it's true. You have to get really close to me to really see, which is weird because I'm I've been very publicly vulnerable on LinkedIn and even in front of my team before. So I'm I'm actually fine being vulnerable in the world. But there's a way in which marketing other companies has been a crutch for me because it's never me. And so I feel braver

But going through the podcast experience, you've been just the other day. I like, I was like,

Clips of me. Or what I look crazy. I was like, why don't like I say like this insane, especially, like, next to you, I just feeling it, like, I always look insane and you're always liked and here is well, presented cam logical statement and I'm like,

And then like even prior to putting this out, what was a emails I sent you? I was like, is this good or people going to hate it? That thing I asked Jay acunzo I was like one episode was out there. When should I be asking for feedback? How many people should I ask? Like, how do I stop? Ya don't appreciate.

Like literally just don't do it keep cranking it as I think that's where as much as I am. I can't help but say what I think and it does get me in hot water sometimes rightfully. So I'm also really afraid of being found out. This is my fear my entire life and especially in my career. And one of the reasons I didn't always talk as much because I was afraid. Someone was going to find out that I didn't know the answer.

Or that my answer is wrong and we talked about this, you know, you wrote the newsletter one day and you wrote it in like 10 minutes cuz I had to I only had 10 minutes to write it but like I can't do that. Even if I only have 10 minutes because I'm so fearful that I've said something wrong or you know that I've analyzed at the wrong way, you should take me 2 hours to write a LinkedIn post because I was afraid. So if I say this, they're going to worry, they're going to think. I don't know this other saying, that sometimes happens with our clip sound like

This makes it look like I don't think the same like this is me. Now today, all comes back down to what if everyone finds out

That I don't know everything or that I'm stupid or what? If I get something wrong and they all see,

and that is like,

My whole life. Yeah and I mean walking you through that like what do you think would happen if you're wrong?

I'm afraid of being publicly ridiculed because you know what? It happened to me a lot.

not in the sense of like posting something on LinkedIn and someone telling me, am I wrong more in my job itself, just happen to be at my first job assuming that this happened to me quite a few times for like I was told, I was did something like stupid in a way that made it look like I was stupid in front of stupid office number when he was like,

Everybody hated it. Because they also have a dedicated work space somewhere else and they just like, didn't trust their team. So I just need to see them working all the time with developers hated. We hated like everybody hated it. And even in school, I was like, bullied a lot. Not in like a physical way, but in like people putting me on the front of things in a really mean, and horrible way for everyone to see. And I just, I haven't gotten rid of it. Where am I? What if I go up there? And I say something and everyone's like she's stupid. And so I think that's what I'm afraid it's going to happen. Constantly. That's part of being a leader. Would you have somebody saying is like, that's going to happen a lot. And I was going to say, I think the other thing is, we've also like, bring a full circle, is that it has happened a lot and he's been. Okay, so why are you so worried about it, you know, which is it. But I think this is the thing. Whether it's feeling like you're going to be

Bed feeling like you're going to be called crazy feeling, like you're going to be called, whatever the adjectives is in your brain. That is stopping you from doing the thing or accepting feedback about the saying you have to examine where I think where it's coming from but also remind yourself that like if it has happened to you before a lot and you are in fact, okay.

Then why are you putting so much drama around it happening again, if you know that you're going to be okay, right? You have the skill set to be able to just around it and deal with it and like I've received so much feedback in my life through.

My direct reports. My boss has two coaches therapists, like, no one in my life. Lets me get away with anything and that's why they're in my life.

So that back to this, this fear, this instance of fear and feedback, one of the things that got me more comfy with receiving critical feedback is accepting the fact that receiving critical feedback is always going to feel a little bit uncomfortable. And if you just being able to like understand that,

And knowing that, my first reaction inside is always going to be a little frustrated and knowing that reacting in the moment isn't usually helpful and I ride this wave, the first little bit of it's going to be uncomfortable. Doesn't mean that that's what it is. And then I totally agree. I think you and I have a similar personality trait where I want to be so perfect. I really, really want to just have figured it all out. Be all buttoned up and I'm not very much and I fail all the time when I in the past had gotten critical feedback that I had heard that as you try so hard. It's not enough. You still like, don't have it all together. And for some reason that was like, absolutely. No moralizing to me. And I think I've definitely gotten to a place where I'm like, oh yeah, of course. Like I haven't gotten it all figured out my grandma.

Had always said, are we all just muddling along and in my Twenties that scared the shit out of me is that that we would all still be muddling along when she at the time was in her. What's a 70? Is telling me that and now I find it. Very freeing to hear her voice in my head. Then aren't we all just muddling along and I think that a good Mantra when you're receiving feedback critical feedback is we're all muddling along while trying to get a little bit better and if you ride that wave I think you can get to the other side and then incorporate it is. It's useful tool that you don't have to incorporate every piece of feedback that you've ever received in your entire life. No, absolutely. Not receive some pretty mean feedback and I chose not to take it to her. I could just feel like I'm not going to I'm not going to integrate that into my

Into my life into my work, silence my whatever because we're all doing it differently to we're all making it up as we go along. Yeah. Although I will say like that's somewhat of an earned saying where if you take that stance too early, you missed out on some evolution of your own self. So I think it's like in the beginning and you have to start with curiosity experiment, with c, not C back through and then say, Oh, I am this type of person until like, that isn't actually a solution. But something else will create a situation that ultimately the feedback was designed to create in the first place. And then how I think about that is, if

I take feedback from somebody. If I respect what they're doing in the area that they're giving me feedback in.

If I look at them and I'm like, yeah, don't want that part of your life right at their work-life. And I don't want to emulate their work-life. Probably not going to take and absorb a lot of their feedback relationship-wise LifeWise and even like once you get into your work, like if it's the background creativity of its background structure, but the feedback on communication if you think that that person does a good job at that or you like want to emulate that person and absolutely taken incorporate that feedback. But if it's somebody else giving you ran a few back in, like I actually don't like how you do that, but I think it's okay to just accept it except it's thank them for the feedback because it is hard to also give feedback. Right. What's your experience been on the other side? I think now you're pretty good at it, but have you always been going to get my nephew Packers at felt like a place of Fairy Tail.

No. So I have not reached the point of Mastery in any part of my life and don't intend to because I think that mindset shuts you off from learning and growing. I would say, for anything I've done, I'm not perfect at it now. Nor was I ever, but giving feedback felt different for me because I have a strong like helpfulness Gene in me. You know how the magic towing companies made you like profiles of your personality and stuff for like Cole working and whatever everything that's ever been measured on me, has always had that strong helpful by Band. So I like giving feedback because I like to help make people better. Like, I want to help them the place where I've fallen short is, I'm not direct enough and I work too hard to make people feel good. So, sometimes I don't say it clearly enough for them to get the point, and it's a message you like, compliments sandwich.

Play where they hear the complex.

Yeah, and I'm like, I'm killing it. Yeah, Chi-Chi. Who is my pee pee of Revenue who came in and like really whipped things into shape when she joined animals, like she had a way of being direct but also empathetic that I really learned from in our short time working together. I was like this is really, it was just so sober minded but there was something you said that like stuck out to me because I've heard almost this exact same thing recently from someone else or you said that feeling of your trying so hard but it's still not enough feeling that way. When you get feedback I have felt that way before and I was just talking to someone who just received some critical feedback and felt the same way and I stole relate to that because that's the like Messi.

Difficult side of learning where you could be doing your absolute best and it isn't enough and it's because you have a learning opportunity in front of you and that is really scary because that gets to that point of like, oh my God, I'm not good enough now. I'll never be good enough. Gas in all those like negative thoughts filter through. If you're receiving feedback in a really productive way, thoughts of blowing in not everyone, but for some people myself included. Yeah. And it just goes back to chill. Nothing is enough for me. When I think about the times of that has been the case.

The scary part is that I have a blind spot and I think the more that I can, the more that I've thought about other people as mirrors to show me my blind spot and know that I'm coming into a conversation, whether it's the one on one with the manager review, cycle or whatever and be more curious about like, hey, what are you seeing if my blind spots and even asking that preemptive, I feel like then the feedback I receive, I can absorb a little bit better because I'm putting my own brain and like there's no way that I can see every aspect of myself. Like this person is going to mirror to me something that I haven't seen, but I think without putting my brain in that space. Somebody coming in and giving me feedback about something that I haven't seen about myself feels

too big and too scary in the night like waves thing happen, that distinction can be really helpful without feedback about the stuff that I

I'm seeing in trying really hard on. It's usually feedback on something else. I totally missed in the process, that's a valid. But the fact that I didn't see everything is, like horrifying to me, even though, I know deep down that there's no possible way that you can be perfect and see everything and operate at Inno. Perfect, on you, write like that. So, I think the unknown unknown there are surprises you don't want and not create the fear. We are late. Am I going to be surprised anyway? I don't want to be surprised like and once you have an awareness that you can be surprised by your own self and if you're a perfectionist and want to control everything already feels right, you're like why can't control that and all of a sudden you're like it breaks your

It's like, oh yeah. You know, this isn't one of the LinkedIn post. I wrote, once I said, I feel deep personal shame every time I make a mistake and I said that a CEO because true and it's a hard thing to. How do you fall in love with the parts of yourself? You want to change the most? That's what my mom always used to say, to me, spell lies, you told me the other day, you told me to one of the times that we were like in real life together that you what is that what you chase eludes you? What you become you attract and a like or wrote it down like Montrose over the last six months, just become what you want to attract and like God damn. That's so good. Yeah, you're mom's very wise

When I would get frustrated in my life about something of myself, I wanted to change. She would tell me that I have to fall in love with it. In order for it to go away. I want to fall in love with it. You won't even have to try. It'll just disappear. I didn't always understand. I believed it cuz I'm used to like wanting to like I am going to fix this with my hands, right? Like this is going to end.

I can see it better now, where, you know, I have a meltdown. The, my mistake take responsibility move on.

So Margaret, I have a question for you.

Do you ever think about giving up?

Play bucket, give up all the time. What thing do you want to talk about? Giving up, I gave up on full-time employment for a little while ya gave up like directly managing I gave up and that was a thing is honestly when I was making a call to leave full-time employment and start this business,

I was like, I'm either going to only have barely enough clients to support my lifestyle and then use all the rest of my time to become, like a hermit, like how my garden paint do the stuff or I'm going to lean all in and build a big business, and it's funny. I feel like I did the ladder at the beginning part of it. And then, I've now kind of calms down into into painting more and doing more my art stuff. So, but I was like, I mean, I give up I give up all the time. I feel like a like a life is Perpetual shedding of identity. And I think based on last episode when we were talking about pivoting around, I think that I am a master at putting around and it most recently, I've figured out what like my mission is my values are. And I feel like I now can see how they get expressed through the world and lots of different types of ways and I can pivot around them.

One can be in our technology and being in the tech world in the PBS world, one can be more in my art one can be more in even Raising a Son in this chaotic world and so thinking about what score to me, stay still and knowing that, like I'm not giving up on that core identity. I'm just giving up on the activation of it in the certain way that I'm going about it. Yeah, yeah, it's funny. This concept is come up in a couple of conversations all in the past like week and a half where I was talking to one person about their job. And since I have known them out at that job for a long time, they both liked it. But also, there is some, like, a little bit of values misalignment with leadership etcetera, and they were encountering a challenge and asked for my advice and we were talking about it. And one of the things their partner asked them was that was

Is this a grass is greener situation? Or is this really a situation? You don't want to be in any more healthy for you and it made me think about giving up as a strategy where I said to them.

Based on what I'm hearing from you.

And this is just my opinion. Like, feel free to give up. Like, this isn't worth it.

Just like give up and it's not, it's fine. Like I feel like it by the time somebody's going to get an external opinion on whether or not they should give up or not. It's probably that they know, you know, now although I will say I put a lot of thought into my decisions but there are those times where your gut

Just tells you. Yeah, and I would say that was my experience with animals where non dramatically

eat all there's no blame or not. I was like, I'm done time right now.

I was like, I am absolutely finished right now and now it doesn't actually play out that way, right? You feel like you don't have conversations with my leadership team at that are said right? Like there's a process once you make that call. But in a way, it was one of the easiest decisions I've ever made on your brain, can switch that quickly in 20. I'm done.

Yes or no? I personally I don't know what this is about me. I like staying with the same thing for a long time. That is my preference. That's why I didn't pursue client work for a long time because I didn't like the constant switching. I like to invest in something for a long time but I do feel like I have a ruthlessness.

Now ruthless cutting of words of things. For my leaving friends that I haven't had before I maybe it's just turning 40, that's done it. But sound is a boundaries I think so good. Bye good boundary. I think so. I think so I have in the past questioned am I missing an opportunity by leaving? And I think that usually comes up like, most the time when I switched jobs I was

Taking a step up.

Or learning something new. So I was really clear at those times. I wouldn't I didn't question it cuz I wasn't I wasn't just leaving something I was running towards something else.

I had to get from the both times where I should have just run. I had to get fired. Like, if they had to fire me, I was like, I kept because already had the wall, and I was becoming more, and more Behavior was getting worse because I wouldn't give up. And I was sort of, you know, I wasn't, I wouldn't say looking back that I was in, if I had just left I would have, I would have been able to say, I didn't, like the way I was being treated or I didn't like the vision or how things were going forward. And so I left to pursue a situation that's good for me. I think that's what the animals situation came to us like though.

Walter is like to have the same vision anymore and we always did. Right? Like we didn't agree on tactics hardly ever that wasn't. Our job is actually better that we didn't cuz I learned a lot from him. But I disagree with them constantly, right? Cuz I breathe more and more conversation that our argument is a deeper understanding of another person's perspective. If you can let it in and it actually, I probably never gave them credit for this, but like I ended up doing a lot of the sayings or incorporating more of what he was trying to push me towards it wasn't exactly what he wanted. And so it seemed to him a lot even though I always disagree with him. But when it came down to something, like you were talking earlier, like, corned fundamental, I was like, oh, I just don't want to do that. And this was that, you know, just the thing that made it really clear for me, if I was like, my job as a CEO is to protect the company and the people there in

That's it. And I said, if I stay and try to make this work Walter, I will be at odds because I won't be able to meet him there. And that will compromise the company and told became like math. I was going to go, but I can't get the things. I love a lot and that was it. And it's like, there's no anger, there's no resentment, there's no, you don't even like, obviously you always have to work things out. When you're in a relationship with something or someone for that long, like there's going to be stuff you have to work through and I definitely did. They were Pawn Stars angry? There is where I, you know, felt like things were unfair But ultimately because I just gave up and said this is it

I'm able now look back and see all the nuance and that experience and have a net positive. Take-away don't feel like a failure. I don't feel like I gave up on things when they were hard, it was hard. A hundred percent of the time. It was March 2020. The day that we told the team it was like there was no point where anything was simple results, you know, I think. That's what it where I came from giving up, but it was interesting to see other people, you know, my friend, another person I was talking to where they are going grappling with this thing's like he's choosing something else.

Another another career path is that me giving up?

For the right reasons or is it me giving up on an opportunity to like, bro, of all the cetera? There's two things that when you were talking I was thinking about the first is, like, sparring with people, and I like that, especially at the executive level, if you can show up and Bar,

With your peers and organization and neither person walks away feeling angry. Cuz there was a emotional boundaries I was Cross or whatever it is. But if you can just have that productive debate, I think that's a really, really powerful thing. And I think that shame and fear stop us from doing that a lot of the time and to have like a, just a healthy down and out, like my gray the opposite. I agree this. And then the other part that I think it is around like committing and even if you disagree committing, right? And so I think about especially about executive-level the executive team has to look around. Understand, everyone's point of views on that team and if you disagree with the decision at hand, you either disagree and commit to that vision,

Or you disagree and leave and like that's an also an appropriate answer is like I can actually even disagree and commit to though. So I'm going to go and I think that's completely fair. And the more that we put emotionality behind it is where it becomes drama rather than to you. It makes so much sense to me. We're just becomes math and I love like when your brain can get that point where you're like oh this is actually not even an emotional decision. This is just math. I just can't do that anymore. Yeah, it's hard to do honestly. It took me all the experiences prior to get there cuz I didn't always do that. I feel like wrapping this conversation into a bow, it's that fear and shame makes us emotional in a way that is unproductive if we're trying to actually have

Cool heads to make decision to understand someone else's point of view and the more that you can like heal those parts or understand where they're coming from, or get to a place where you can operate without some of that fear and shame, the more that you were going to be a more effective leader, more effective Communicator, a more effective decision maker because then you can kind of come out at from the respect of the fact that there are lots of different ways to do this. Then we're all as grandma PO said we're all muddling along. Yes, you're absolutely right here in shame prevent

Learning and cut off connections.

They're brick wall from everything you want.

Actually a job.

And now we're reading from Taco Bell for future, astrologer Jennifer Hersch,

I think that active listening is a skill set that is being eradicated and I think it's one of the most invaluable tools that we have is human being. Can I listen intently and like not judge myself or them in the moment to hear what I'm saying? Try and get as much out of it as many facets as there are right. We communicate so much as human beings on an intellectual level on an emotional level, on a spiritual level, and make strategic level where we want the company to go, you always have to think about feedback in context, right? And are so many nuances to the feedback you're getting from someone where they've been, what they value of the company values were strategy for the company. May be going how they feel that day, there's a whole set of things that are going on there and if you don't know all of that and you don't know what you want.

How can you take the feedback in any direction to know what's pencil for your? What's not, where is Generation? That's totally up, ended work. If you go to Generations back, there's very few of us are doing what our grandparents have done. There's no. And we're working in industries that have been invented In Our Lifetime. And so, we're coming up on so much New & Again. Especially in these times, we're coming up on so much Revolution and evolution and Innovation on what all of this can be at such a rapid clip. So the world around us is at this like Breakneck speed and yet as an astrologer as an anthropologist is a futurist were not that different as humans. What we want how we want to seek, I can take Millennium astrology. Look at it, blind and tell someone what they want on the challenges. How much can they internalize that? And how much can I adopt that to all the different parts of their life, right?

I've told everyone that the second half of this year is like the worst time to raise money because everything is retrograde and we're about to enter into the Aries Libra nodal access. So we've already been in this like very tribal. The last three years as we are our readjusting, what our values are within. Are chives and kind of like the things that we devote ourselves to more individualistically the next three years. Like no more Collective, no more consideration, no more. Like, it's just me if they're not going to care about a lot of people, we're all not care about a lot of people and you may be an empathetic individual who recognizes the humanity in and all anybody individually have a huge passionate nature and recognize just how what's at stake but like

I don't think the next three years are going to be very pleasant, giving all the indications I have.

It may be individually, lovely. But collectively.

So what does that mean for people leading teams and leading company is you're going to have it sounds like you're going to have a tough time seeing. How do you do it? So it's less one-on-one time.

What is the next year's going to be rough? It's going to be a very individualistic Society that's going to bleed into the workplace. Which means managers leaders CEOs are going to have to think differently in a more personalized way about how to lead people create and really cold lead and I wanted to look what you're saying about the individual. A lot of the companies that I have been talking to specifically service based companies, where individuals are the product, they're leaning even more into subcontractors. So, instead of hiring teams their contract out, which is basically a version of everyone as individuals because their eyes, everyone's and I am, right? And it's based on the project. So I wonder if that's something that continues to grow in popularity because it allows people to exist side-by-side without having to unite them under the same company values, Mission Vision, all of that.

the things that text enable us to do is kind of have a Transformer approach to everything like, okay, I'm going to connect this bed and I have something that supposed to a billion-dollar 100,000 person pork

And made up of many companies.

All right, this is where our show ends if you'd like to leave Devin and Margaret your own executive thrashing story, or nightmare marketing story. Had to the Lincoln are shown up, thanks for tuning in and if you like we're doing here, don't forget to subscribe and leave it to Rubio, maybe chat with your friends up to you and I'll see you next time.

But it's kind of more of a dragonfly girl in the 90s that had a Fly Girl. And I was a butterfly when we was down to each other,