Developing Family Businesses for Long Term Success and Succession with Jenny Dinnen

Dane Groeneveld: Welcome to the Future of Teamwork podcast. My name is Dane Groeneveld, CEO of HUDDL3 Group. And today, I'm glad to welcome a neighbor here in Orange County, Jenny Dinnen. Jenny is the co- owner, chief ideation officer, and futurist at Mackenzie Corporation, and a second generation family owned business. We're going to cover some cool stuff today. Welcome, Jenny.

Jenny Dinnen: Oh, thank you for having me on here. I'm excited to talk to you.

Dane Groeneveld: Jenny, perhaps for the benefit of our listeners, I saw there on your LinkedIn profile, you spend a bit of time in Australia as a student. We've got a bit of a connection there already. But maybe you could tell us a little bit of the story of what to date has brought you through your journey to being in the role that you're in and doing some of the work that you're doing.

Jenny Dinnen: Oh gosh, yeah. I love you dropped in the Australia, I just had a stopover, quick stopover in Sydney there. But really, I'm born and raised in Orange County, which is fun to find people that are native here in Orange County. Love being in this spot, but grew up with two entrepreneurial parents. Both my parents started and owned their own businesses growing up. It was realized now such a gift of what that is. Like you said, I'm a second generation, so run my family business with my twin sister, I jumped to that. But growing up, I did not grow up in a family business where it was you're going to take over the family business. I had a dad who started a business in the data analytics space 37 years ago, incredible opportunity of what he was doing there. But it was really to support his family of what that was in growing businesses. Both Katie and I went off, we both went, actually, to different high schools because we hated each other. Interesting now running a business together, but we both actually ended up at University of Colorado, Boulder. And so in the marketing world there, I was... And really, then went into Home Depot and HSPC Bank on the creative marketing side of things. Loved it. I think that it's fantastic to get some big company experiences. And Home Depot paid for my MBA and some different pieces and just had some incredible leaders there. Growing up, I also didn't really know what my dad did. I knew that he traveled a lot, that there were computers involved and motorcycles, actually.

Dane Groeneveld: Oh.

Jenny Dinnen: Which seems a little bit strange, but his very first client was Yamaha Motor Corporation, still a very amazing client of ours today. I mean, actually, I think my seven- year- old thinks that I sell motorcycles-

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, cool.

Jenny Dinnen: ... as well.It's easier to explain to a kid than some of the analytics that we do. Anyway, after being out in the real world, I'd say for quite a few years, started to realize and we started asking questions, what is it that you do? What is your business, both Kate and I. And we started asking the questions about... And started making comments to people and friends about coming back and taking over the family business. And we heard a lot about, don't do it, you'll ruin the family and you'll ruin the business. Just don't do it. As overplanners as we are, we ended up finding and hearing about Cal State Fullerton to, I think, is a different connection, their center for family- owned businesses about 15 years ago maybe. We've joined and we're part of that community, which we didn't even know that there was a family business community. Hired a transition consultant, wrote an entire business plan, presented it to dad, and fast forward through a lot of pieces in there, but Kate and I now run, co- owners, co- presidents of Mackenzie Corporation, really evolving the business all the time. I mean, to be running an insights data analytics firm, I guess I'll just say, is extremely exciting and crushingly overwhelming at the same time trying to keep up. Hence then, we're doing all this insights and have a lot of pieces here, but at the same time then, leaning into this future's world of like, hey, if we're going to stay relevant, be relevant, stay relevant. How do we get out of our own sphere, look up, and say, oh my god, there's an entire world out there of endless opportunities. There's a lot there, but took a roundabout way and love, love being in this family business space and working with some incredible clients.

Dane Groeneveld: That's really cool. There's so many great themes there that you touched on, some of them common, some of them unique to your story. You see in common when you look at family owned businesses that mom or dad or both mom and dad started the business to support the family, they didn't do it. Because they had this Elon Musk vision to put humans on another planet or anything else like that. It was just very basic beginnings and then they built it. And that's certainly was true of Ron Stein, the founder of PTS advance, one of our businesses.

Jenny Dinnen: Isn't it amazing?

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, it's really cool.

Jenny Dinnen: Yeah, and saw a problem. I mean, I think that's the biggest thing. They saw a problem. They could solve a solution and then started growing from there. I mean, that was where my dad grew the business because then he was in front of his clients, in front of people and listening. I mean, that's the soul of what we do here, is actually listen to people. And I truly believe that companies that are succeeding in the future here are the ones that actually listen to their customers, listen to people, and then create product services and experiences based on what they hear. I mean, it's like this mind boggling thing that if we listen to what the people's problems are and we solve for them, we're going to have a successful business.

Dane Groeneveld: Absolutely, yeah. Actually, we just had our big culture circle event in Tampa and Florida over the weekend. And-

Jenny Dinnen: I love that.

Dane Groeneveld: ...our keynote speaker is Dr. Ernesto Sirolli, who did the TED Talk, shut up and listen.

Jenny Dinnen: Ah.

Dane Groeneveld: And it's funny, with you guys being in data analysis, customer analysis, market analysis, that's all listening. And you're absolutely right. It's whether you're building a new product, a new service, whether you're trying to develop your team, it's all about being good at understanding what's going on from other people's perspectives.

Jenny Dinnen: 100%. I can't tell you how many times I've said to clients or prospects, people are like, when was the last time you actually went out and talked to your customers, literally talked to your customers? I mean, go on for days about, there's so much value, the amount of data that's out there. But I was speaking up at actually Chapman a couple years ago at one of the market research classes and it was great being up there and speaking to one of the classes. And a girl at the very end, I said, " Are there any questions?" And when they just stared at me for a minute, but then somebody bravely raised her hand and said, " Are you even relevant anymore your company, because we can just track what everybody does." I was like, " Whoa. One, thank you for the question. Two..." And that it stuck with me a long time. I said, " That's telling us what people are doing, not why they're doing it, and underneath and engaging and connecting with them." It's 100% valuable that we need all the data, we need that, but we need to remember that there's human beings on the other end. And there's probably a larger story of why they bought those things and what was happening and what else was happening in their lives so we can create a deeper connection with them as opposed to just the what did they do.

Dane Groeneveld: The connection piece is massive. That's the human element. That's what humans do. We're social creatures. I think so many people, particularly through COVID, they've gone and grabbed a technology or a tool and said, oh, we've got this covered now. Then they forget how things fall apart when you're not understanding the why and motivating people to connect around a shared fade practice.

Jenny Dinnen: Well, and if we've learned anything relatively recently, people want their voices to be heard and they want to be part of communities. And whatever of that is, I think we could be using it for good of building communities because people are tapping into that for good and bad. But I think we can be using it for good, that people want to feel connected. They want to know that their opinions and their voices matter, that they're seen, that they're understood, and that other people like them. I mean, why I love the Center for Family- Owned Businesses is because, literally, I was just up in Marina del Rey last week at a transitions conference. It's a big family business conference. And the beauty of sitting in a room and just feeling relaxed to be like, oh yeah, mom, dad, your sister, like the business. There's no judgment, people had been there that we've connected on it. I felt so connected to those people from sharing our stories and knowing that they understood what I was going through. It's incredible. I love it.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, that's a huge piece, community belonging. And I think when you look at family business, we had a guest, Robbie Tombosky, on the program and he was talking about families of teams too, right?

Jenny Dinnen: Ah.

Dane Groeneveld: And there's an interesting dynamic in a family as a team, but maybe you could take us back to that point that you referenced earlier. You said, you and your sister were talking to others saying, we're thinking about going back and people are wading you off it, which on one hand says something about how people perceive family businesses.

Jenny Dinnen: It's huge.

Dane Groeneveld: But then you talked about bringing a transition consultant in, so you put a team together to really map out how you were going to do this. I'd love to hear a bit more about that process.

Jenny Dinnen: Yeah, it's funny, Joanne Norton, we say, she's just our angel. Well, she's still here, she's incredible. We still love her. She said, " It's so weird to me that you're coming before there's a problem." And she says most people hire her when there's a problem, when they're already fighting and not talking. And so she says we're her little case study of how it should be. But I think the narrative is there's so... I mean succession, there's all these shows out there, Yellowstone, I mean, whatever. There's all of these stories because drama sells, I guess. But when we were out there, everybody, and their mother, it seemed to have a story about, oh man, my dad worked with somebody or my brother worked with somebody. And if you look at the stats, 70% of businesses America are family- owned businesses, which is just unbelievable. It's like 63% of GDP-

Dane Groeneveld: That's a huge number.

Jenny Dinnen: ... or57% of the workforce. I'm messing up the stats there, but it's massive, the number of businesses in America that are family- owned businesses. And so, of course, everyone's got a story. And you add business, there's just a lot of drama and business to begin with. And then there's family and there's a lot of drama in family. And you put those two together and you are going to deal with, everyone's got a story. And so, Katie and I are really on this mission that the narrative right now is family businesses. There's fighting and it's hard and there's all this narrative here. And then there's also this narrative right now about, with young people, because we've been doing a project actually in the future family business project-

Dane Groeneveld: Oh, cool.

Jenny Dinnen: ... which is incredible. I haveso many things to dig in there. But there's this narrative with this younger generation of wanting to be entrepreneurs and create this unicorn business and do all of these whatnots. We believe that there's a third path at the middle of, if we could communicate the right way, if we can keep our wealth of what it is and be working within the family business and leverage the strengths of the family business. I mean, we're launching another business right now and I'm a well- funded startup. I mean, I'm leveraging the tools, that there's this other path. How do we change the narrative in America for family businesses? I mean, that's my lofty goal, long term, is to change the narrative so there's better, bigger stories. I don't think people even realize the impact of family businesses have on America.

Dane Groeneveld: No, I think-

Jenny Dinnen: Again, worldwide. Worldwide, it's even more so, but I'll stick with America for today.

Dane Groeneveld: But I think that's huge. We overlook that statistic, and it is a big number and it's a good pathway. I think a lot of people, they're in that dumbbell strategy of I'm either doing something very conventional, going to work for a big corporation like an HSBC or Home Depot, or I'm going to go and do a startup and try and become the next Elon Musk. But no one's thinking about the in between where there's a lot of opportunity, which is huge.

Jenny Dinnen: There's some big things I think that needs to change, but is changing. But if family businesses, how the succession will work down the road.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, I agree. Alright, so you talked about succession, which I'd like to come back to in a little bit. But what I'd like to jump into, Jenny, is this future of family business project. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.

Jenny Dinnen: Oh man. Kate and I, we've been doing a lot of futures work and strategic foresight work. And I'll just leave even on that kind of a plug there. I had found The Future School and CAD, just what we did our training through. But in November of 2019, I was introduced to this concept of the strategic foresight world. And I was actually up in Portland for a three- day training session, November 2019. And now I just realize the universe works in funny ways, but what a gift that it was. It was a global thing. There were people from all over the world and being introduced to this concept of strategic foresight and how we can be planning for the future differently. From that, then did a six- month program and did a whole bunch of training. And then Kate went through the program and it's been amazing. We've been working on a few different projects. The Future of Family Business Project that we've commissioned, I guess I'll just say through Mackenzie, it's been a fun space. Really, in this world, and I think you've work in this space, but really it's starting with overall mapping and that steep categories of looking at social technology, political, whatnot, and really start looking. I think we identified 9 or 10 drivers out there, some big things that are coming in, things like... Because it's really not just looking at the future of family business, but what's going to be affecting businesses and families and whatnot. And so a lot of those topics, like the future of communication, future of retirement, what does that look like, wealth distribution in America, all these different pieces are. I've got to jump to the end and then come back even to one or two points. But from there, we've developed four different scenarios. We've got our baseline and then we've got the fortress world market transformative world. It's really fun. I'm excited. I would love to bring you in.

Dane Groeneveld: Oh yeah.

Jenny Dinnen: We just are finishing seven in the New Year because we wanted to do at the end of the year, it's just one too many things. But now we want to bring together family businesses and have them go through these scenarios. Because in this work, a lot of people... Then I'll dig into one or two of the topics if timer makes sense. But a lot of people disagree about where we are presently and how we could solve problems. I mean, I think we've all been through this issue. But the beauty about scenarios is we've taken a few of these pieces and created scenarios 5, 10, 15 years in the future.

Dane Groeneveld: Cool.

Jenny Dinnen: We've created these scenarios and then we say, listen, let's suspend disbelief for right now and let's say that we're in these scenarios out here. And so what's happening today, if we extrapolated out, for example, future of retirement, people are not retiring at the age of 65 or whatnot and they want to continue and they want to figure out. Well, in the family business space, the next generation is wanting to take over dad or mom, but is not moving out of the way for you to whatnot. And so how do we create an opportunity with the senior generation where they can still be valuable and have these different pieces? Well, if we play different scenarios, just that one piece, but we take 8 to 10 drivers and we say, okay, what if dad doesn't retire? Okay, well if we play this scenario out, next generation's going to say, we don't have our place, we're not going to come in the family business because we're going to go do our own thing, because there isn't a spot for us. Okay, let's say that we move up to a different place of, okay, what if we created this opportunity and then we layer it in with other ones of family businesses, so they're hard to disconnect them. But family business's role in a community, right? If the family business role in a community is to take care of the community and coming together, well, what if we had this kind of senior generation also taking on different roles in the community to be solving problems and having these kind of cohorts of what are these types of pieces? What if we layer in on top of it and then I'll... Because I can talk about this for days, but the future of communication. The really big thing in family business is a lot of this even, I guess, I'll just even say my generation, a lot of things went unsaid. We were told certain things, you didn't really feel it, you pushed it down, we'll deal with that later. There's a lot of therapy probably going on, and that affects succession planning and affects things. Well, it's interesting. I'm teaching the family business class up at Cal State Fullerton right now. And one of the younger students, he said, " Do you think that for family businesses succeed going forward, they have to bring in a consultant?" And my knee- jerk reaction was, yes.

Dane Groeneveld: Ah.

Jenny Dinnen: I said, "Because I needed them to help me through some issues that we dealt with and things that we didn't talk about over time." Well, I'm curious about the future of communication on lots of levels of... This next generation is very vocal about what they need and what they want and how they're feeling. I mean, there'll be some repercussions possibly later about sharing that everybody in the world, but they're dealing with their feelings now and they're telling their parents what they want and they're saying, " This is what I want our role to be." I think that that's all going to be changing. We start layering these different drivers in here and saying, now let's start looking at this and saying, what are these different futures of family business and the beauty of it? And then I'll stop. But we play these scenarios out and what would happen. And there's no right or wrong scenario. But if we were here and what is the possible, probable, and preferable future? And then we say, okay, I want a world where my kids are able to express their talents and treasures the way they want. I want my dad to be doing this. I want these things. This is my preferred future. Well then, what do I have to do today to make that happen? So many people, I feel like, are like, they're just getting pushed and it's reacting to what's happening-

Dane Groeneveld: It is, yeah.

Jenny Dinnen: ...where that ... I mean, of course, those things happen. But if we start plotting out here and even saying what's similar between all four of these and making sure, what do we need to do today? I mean, we did a future of customer insights project at the beginning of the pandemic, played out every scenario and said, regardless of what scenario, what actually happens, you want to be-

Dane Groeneveld: This is important.

Jenny Dinnen: ... resilient agilecompany there is. And I've played out every scenario from everybody that's hoarding their data and they're in their little silos, versus we get paid to put our information out on Facebook and is more data sharing available out there. I don't know if I answered your question.

Dane Groeneveld: You totally did. You totally did. And I've written three pages of notes.

Jenny Dinnen: I love it. It's so fun.

Dane Groeneveld: There's so much stuff that you touched on that ... Yeah, super fun. And so much stuff that you've touched on that just crosses over and combines a number of discussions we've had with guests on this show and with other businesses. Before we started, I said futurist, I love the futurist in your title. And what I'm sensing here is... And I love the way you said you're a well- funded startup, too. But what I'm sensing here is that you guys are bringing more than just ideas to being a futurist. Because of this data analytics, customer analysis, market analysis, game theory, scenario planning that you're doing, you're actually building a working model that helps go past the traditional MBA strategic plan, which is just... It's so cool. And I love the community ecosystem element.

Jenny Dinnen: Ah.

Dane Groeneveld: That's very real. Technology helps us share a lot of data in real- time that traditionally, you wouldn't feel safe or comfortable sharing or you wouldn't have access to to share in the first place. And so I told you, I might drop technology in here. But when you talk about collaborating, sharing technology on Facebook or wherever else it is, I think that is what Web3 is going to be for all of us is whether it's through NFTs, tokens, the metaverse, whatever else. I think what we're trying to say is everyone should be able to generate a little bit more ecosystem impact through the data and through their actions. And they should be able to benefit from the ecosystem outcomes.

Jenny Dinnen: 100%. I'm so intrigued by all of it. What I want to make sure is, and it's really this participatory futures like, how do we create a future where everybody that will be impacted has a voice? It's not just one or two people. I mean, it's not just a future, but even today, when we say like, hey, if I'm going to build a new whatever, water bottle or something, let's talk to the people that are using it. Let's get their input, I mean in on macro levels, I mean communities, let's create participatory features. The thing with the metaverse and the all of these other things, I think it's fantastic. I want to make sure that we're creating, that we're not just getting so fixated on the technology and we're creating this new space that one we're running away from issues today and we're creating a space I watch my kids, my young kids of. It seems so bizarre to me. There's a scarcity model here, which I'm more abundance thinker. Why would we create a scarcity model in the metaverse, which is infinite, where people can be making money and we've got these scarcity things? It's like it's this odd thing that we're just recreating, so the potential of what's out there is incredible. But if we keep human beings in the middle of it and we're not just looking for the next place to profit and create scarcity, it seems odd to me.

Dane Groeneveld: No, but I think that's a really important point. And I have historically shared your concern, which is I'd be talking to people-

Jenny Dinnen: Not now historically, but not now.

Dane Groeneveld: Historically, I'm changing, and I'll explain that in a minute. But historically-

Jenny Dinnen: Okay, I love it.

Dane Groeneveld: I was always like, I'm all about people. The reason that I love the industry that I've been a part of for most of my career recruiting, putting people in jobs, is that I just see people benefit so much as individuals, as teammates, as community members through work. I've always hated this dystopian view of, well, people are going to be on universal based income and they're not going to have to show up to work and they're going to play games all day. I've hated that idea. I've always wanted to keep people in work. And so when someone would come and say Web3 and robotics and AI, I'd always see it as a threat. I listened to a really good podcast, a guy called Mo Gawdat. He was on my friend Mike Lee's podcast. And he's written a book called Scary Smart. And it talks about AI, not specifically Web3. But essentially, what they say is that AI's already here, it's a toddler, and it's going to become a teenager, and then it's going to become an adult. It's here. And what we, as humans, need to do is not say we're all about the human piece and we're going to ignore the technology. We need to embrace the technology. We need to train the technology to do what's human and to reinforce what's human. I like your point that you touched on there, which is we need to make sure that we don't reproduce a scarcity mindset, that we do create an abundance mindset. And I think if you've got the right people in the mix and that you can build the framework, that you can actually achieve that through some of these technologies. Not tomorrow, maybe not next year, but it's a-

Jenny Dinnen: No. And I mean-

Dane Groeneveld: ...work in progress.

Jenny Dinnen: Yeah, and it's not either or. I mean, I think that's just the biggest piece here as I'm all for. I mean, I think it's amazing in the technology. And I think there's another podcast, Team Human, which has got some really good stuff on there. I mean, there's so many amazing things. I just think, I mean, probably because... I mean, everyone's got their buzz terms. But in my world, it's big data, big data. Everybody is like, oh my gosh. And everyone coming to me, " How do I deal with my big data?" I'm like, "Do you know who your customers are? Do you know where they came from?" I'm like, " Let's talk about small data for a minute." Now it's all AI's going to save the world and we're all going to be data driven. It's all good. I mean, obviously, I'm a data company. I think that there's tremendous value in a technology company. I think there's so much there. I'm very curious of where it's all going. And I'm not that Jane McGonigal who read all of her stuff, but imaginable. She's got an incredible book and she does this whole stump the futurist. And there's these things. And she'll do this, put something astronomical out there that it'll never happen. And so if you do these pieces, then she's like, and I'll show you today that it's happening. I mean, so to say the metaverse is never going to take over, that this is not going to... I mean, it will never or it will always, it just doesn't make any sense. I mean, I think we're moving-

Dane Groeneveld: There's no absolute.

Jenny Dinnen: No, no. And there's so much potential. I mean, because there's the, no, no, no, we're not going to buy into it or let's explore it. That's the thing I'm so curious. What does that mean and why? I think the biggest thing that I love about a lot of this foresight world is a lot of people when they think about the future though, back to that steep model, they only look at technology. But there's a lot of things that are in there. The future is not just technology, but social technology, political, environmental, economic. What are these other things? And what I'm most interested in is, and what are the value shifts underneath that's happening that are causing these things to happen? There's a reason why we're where we are today. There's a reason why we are certain things are happening. And so we can get underneath the pieces and then we can figure out now how to push things the way we want it to be as opposed to just being like... I think so many people are rolled over a turtle on their back and the road and they're like, I don't know, AI's going to take over the world. I'm like, or we could proactively figure out how to best leverage it.

Dane Groeneveld: Absolutely.

Jenny Dinnen: There's an alternate.

Dane Groeneveld: And I think you said it there about it's not just the technology, there's a social piece. You see a lot right now when you talk to investment bankers about what businesses they want to buy and they're like, oh, we're looking for technology platforms and tech enabled services, but we should be out there looking for people enabled technologies. Because the people are the real drivers of the consumerism or they're the drivers of the sentiment behind environmental change or geopolitical situations. If you can really grab a hold of, embracing power the individuals to be collaborating. I think that's where it really-

Jenny Dinnen: I don't know.

Dane Groeneveld: ...the magic came.

Jenny Dinnen: Maybe I'm Pollyanna for certain things. I mean, I'm a realist on a lot of things as well, but it's a fun playground to be in. And I will just even, on this term, so I've got two daughters, 11 and 7, and I'm always testing ideas out with them. But I was at the beach with my oldest one the other day and I said something to her, and I said, " I hope that I just teach you the agency over your life." I think a lot of people are just... We did the imperative test. And so my purpose statement that I wrote was, my purpose is to rally people together, to empower brands, to reach their audacious goals.

Dane Groeneveld: Love it.

Jenny Dinnen: Status quo, I get bored with. I love the audacious goals. But I realize when I talk to a lot of people, certain people are like, yes. I think you'd be like, hell, yeah, let's go. Other people, their eyes glaze over and audacious goals seem so much. They don't even know that they have the ability to change. I'm like, there's a speed bump out here out in front of my office. And I don't even think they know that they can get over that little bit. Then once they realize they have agents... And I mean, there's circumstances in people's lives, but we all have a lot more agency in our lives than we realize that we do.

Dane Groeneveld: And more now than ever before.

Jenny Dinnen: Oh my gosh!

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, that's huge.

Jenny Dinnen: Yeah, I want to teach my kids that. You want to learn about something, you want to do something, you want to change your whatever like, let's go. I don't know what the-

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, I was talking to a good friend of mine the other day and his daughter's 13, and he paid for her to go into this soccer program and she was like, " Hey, dad, I know you paid for it, but I'm not going to do the soccer program." He's like, " Oh, we talked about this. We said we're going to invest in it." And she's like, " Yeah, but I've just decided not. I went and got onto YouTube and I've decided to start teaching myself guitar."

Jenny Dinnen: Insane, yeah.

Dane Groeneveld: And I'm like, on one hand, you're frustrated because you just sunk that money into a soccer football program that's not going to work. On the other hand, you're like, this is fascinating. My daughter just woke up, decided she wanted to play guitar and she's off doing it. And I didn't have to put her in a car-

Jenny Dinnen: ...

Dane Groeneveld: ...or find a teacher or... At a very micro level, that shows you the agency that this next generation's going to have.

Jenny Dinnen: 100%. If I were to learn anything, I could go learn it. I mean, the future of education is like, that's a whole different whatnot. And, oh man, I feel that one because I paid for the soccer. I'm actually paying for the ... It was like, ding, paying for the piano lessons, actually. Why is my kid on YouTube doing that?

Dane Groeneveld: I know. It's super cool.

Jenny Dinnen: I feel that one, friend.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. And-

Jenny Dinnen: I love it.

Dane Groeneveld: ...this whole agency shift, I think that's going to be big in the future of teamwork as... This is what I love about your scenarios that I'm only just learning about. There's a Dr. Jane McGonigal who's talked about... She did TED Talk on gaming, which I always love to reference.

Jenny Dinnen: Yes, yes. That's the book I've got. She's amazing.

Dane Groeneveld: Oh, that's the one?

Jenny Dinnen: Yes.

Dane Groeneveld: Okay, cool. And so she talks about when you do these scenarios that people come together in games and you remove that fear of separation, that social anxiety, that burden of being right. And people just start to be, and they start to come up with cool ideas and they start to solve problems that going back to family businesses have existed, have been out there for years, if not, generations and not being dealt with, so that the creation of a game or a scenario can be very empowering for giving those individuals their agency.

Jenny Dinnen: It's interesting. Her book that I've got, Imaginable, in the book, there's 10 different scenarios that she plays out. And she was really talking a lot about, too, of it's like this elastic band of like, if we can start stretching our thoughts or doing these things, but it's these 10 scenarios that aren't not personally attached to them. I mean, it was like if the drones start taking over the world and they're starting to deliver, what does this scenario look like? Okay. And then what would we do? How would we wind up? And it starts getting you in this space of like, I don't know, let's imagine what else it could be. We're all... Not all. There's a lot of people that are just stuck dealing with conversations that don't matter right now. If we could be solving... I mean, Upstream is my other favorite book. I mean, I've got a million books. But if we could actually get Upstream to solve the problem...

Dane Groeneveld: Tell me more about Upstream. I haven't come across that title.

Jenny Dinnen: Upstream?

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah.

Jenny Dinnen: I'll send you. I can't remember the author. It's downstairs. We've got a library.

Dane Groeneveld: But what is it about that book that catches your attention?

Jenny Dinnen: Well, because it's the whole theory of... I mean, I think the example which is silly, but it's like down river. You're down the river and they're plucking people out of the river, plucking these kids out of the river. I think some of our nonprofit friends here locally, we're solving this and we're pulling out of the river, pulling... And then somebody said, " Hold on a second, what if we went upstream and said, why are they going in the river to begin with? We do a lot of customer experience work. We could get people off the phone faster at the call center. And so how do we train people to solve the problems? Or what if we went upstream? I think there's the wow factor... Shoot, I can't remember it, the book right now. But the guy says... The Effortless Effect by Matt Dixon. He says, " People just want to... How easy was it to do business with me?" This is instead of the net promoter score. But there was this example in the book about people that had vacuum cleaners and they would call because they would use a vacuum underneath the couch and it would break this plastic piece, and so this whole thing. And so then they would have to order the plastic piece. Well, then they started realizing that when people get the plastic piece and they put it on, it would break. And it was this whole thing. And so they'd have to get another one. Well, then they realized, what if we just sent them two? What if we just sent them two? And I mean, it cost a little bit more, but it's not the postage and the calls and the whatnot. And they started realizing what was the actual problem. Well, they didn't know how to put it on. How do we solve this?

Dane Groeneveld: Solve that problem.

Jenny Dinnen: How do we get up a few levels to say, why are we dealing with this problem when if we went up here, it would actually get rid of all of these problems. Get upstream. In order to reach audacious goals, we cannot be in the minutia of things that don't matter.

Dane Groeneveld: It's so true. Because you don't realize they don't matter today. You're trying to solve that customer's problem with that piece that keeps breaking, but you're not ever able to take that step back and look at the wider supply chain or the wider customer experience.

Jenny Dinnen: Yes. Well, that's why you need different teams, departments, whatnot, working on this, or at least... I mean, I'm a business owner, so I am... We all these. But how much time do you spend in the business versus on the business?

Dane Groeneveld: On the business, yeah.

Jenny Dinnen: And of course, we got to get these things done. But I think that's why we need to slow down of what are we trying to accomplish. Even, I think, so many of us ... I mean, the pandemic- ish was a gift that I think we were all running so fast that I didn't even stop to think the ... I mean, my team, actually, just got an email from one of my team members earlier this week, which I loved. And she said, hey Jenny, do you even use this report anymore that I'm sending out? She's like, great if you do. But if you don't, then I'll stop sending it. And I said, actually, I have another report that I use that gives me more detailed information, let's stop doing that. And it was as simple, and she said, it doesn't take a ton of time, but it was twice a-

Dane Groeneveld: Times that by 100.

Jenny Dinnen: 100%. How do we slow down enough to ask the right questions to figure out where we're going, to look up to say the entire world has shifted like-

Dane Groeneveld: I saw you post on the benefits of slowing down and that really caught my attention the other week.

Jenny Dinnen: Which is hard.

Dane Groeneveld: It is hard.

Jenny Dinnen: I mean, I fully admit, it is hard as an overachiever.

Dane Groeneveld: It's important because ... And you can slow down in one place and speed up in another too. You can balance. Maybe it's slowing down in the day- to- day grind of the business and saying, look, that's going to be okay whether I do that or not, but let me spend more time out in the community working with social impact projects or out doing scenario planning with my team at an offsite. It's about having that discipline.

Jenny Dinnen: Yes. I mean, I love even... I mean, the title, here you see the future of teamwork. I mean, we're a fully remote team for the most part. I come to the office every day. I like having my office. And we have an office that people can come to if they want, but most of them are fully remote. But actually, they're coming to the office today because we realize like, you know what, there's value of being together, being in our group, talking about things, brainstorming. I think that's awesome. I mean, a lot of the folks that worked with us have worked with us for a very long time. And they know what they're doing and they can get their job done. And that's fantastic. But there's something about coming together, slowing down and just having conversations, like going out to visit clients, hearing about what's happening in their lives and like, oh man, I'm actually struggling with this. Oh, perfect. I can help you with that. That slowing down with your clients adds space for them to share what's happening so that you can help them.

Dane Groeneveld: It absolutely does.

Jenny Dinnen: Back to starting a business. It's slowing down enough to hear someone else talk, to hear what their problems are, so you can help solve them.

Dane Groeneveld: Yea. And narrative's important there too. You talked about the narrative family business. But if you're working in an industry or a team where the customers constantly pulling you in and going through a scorecard and looking at the gears turning and not thinking about those wider problems, not thinking upstream, then you're going to need... You can't just go in out of the blue and say, hey, Mr. Customer, Mrs. Customer, can we just have a talk about this? Because they're going to say no, they're busy because they're not slowing down. I think the importance of narrative, and this probably comes back into the futurist in you and me and in some of the others, you've got to tell a story about the future that you hope for, maybe that audacious goal so that you can encourage them to take that extra half an hour or 20 minutes over a coffee or whatever it might be to talk to you about those upstream issues.

Jenny Dinnen: People won't change until they fall in love with the version of the future more so than... I mean, most people will stay where they are. We have to tell them more and paint this vivid enough picture in how they fit into the future. To get people ... I mean, change management, that's a whole different thing. But they need to fall in love with the version of the future that you're selling and it needs to be crystal clear to them. I mean, it's crystal clear in my mind. I mean, bring up Elon Musk. I mean, he's like, it is so clear in his mind of what's happening possibly, I don't know, maybe recently, but he needs to get some other people on the bus to understand what's happening for certain pieces. That's then where we need to slow down enough to make sure that where is everybody on the team, are they with us? I do have the ability to go to the future and dream really big. And actually, the beauty of running a business with my twin sister, actually, I got an idea jar over here.

Dane Groeneveld: Cool.

Jenny Dinnen: She's like, " Jenny, you have to slow down," because I have to implement everything that you're talking about and we need to make sure that everyone is with us and understanding where we're going.

Dane Groeneveld: And that's another good example of teamwork. I know there's that book, Rocket Fuel, which I think was Gino Wickman, who also wrote Traction, the... Yeah. And so that's all about that visionary and the integrator. And there's a lot of great stories of where you need those two. Because if you're just doing the integration operations, you don't think to the future, you don't go upstream. If you're only doing the future and the upstream, then that person dies lonely and sad because nothing ever gets done.

Jenny Dinnen: Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm like, why someone raining on all my parade? I've got these big ideas. I mean, we've done all the strength finders, we've done all the dust motivators. And I am so thankful for my team because I realize I'm allowed to do this because they're behind me risk assessing, figuring this out, doing these pieces. But I don't know how people run their business without their exact opposite. Like my twin sister and I, we were just in Michigan speaking at the Grand Rapids Business Alliance about siblings working together. I think, in teams and in partnerships, there has to be a vulnerability enough to say, I used to feel really bad about what I was bad at and I would get stuck in there. And I also assumed that Katie wouldn't want me to tell her what to do. And so we were in this weird thing. And obviously, growing up, you fight when you're not the same. But all of a sudden, I started saying, this is what I want to do and this is what I'm not interested. And it was weird. She was like, " Oh my gosh, this is what I want to do." And then where we had a gap, then we bring in experts and we figure this out. But once we were vulnerable enough to say what we actually are good at, then now we've got a team of incredible people around us that fill in the gaps.

Dane Groeneveld: They're just fueled. That's super exciting. You and Katie, were you identical twins, fraternal?

Jenny Dinnen: No. It's funny. My grandpa's an identical, my mom's an identical twin, but Kate and I are fraternal twins.

Dane Groeneveld: Got it. Okay, cool. The reason I ask is two of my best buddies, they're identical twins and they're like mirrors of each other. One's left- handed, one's right- handed, one was more arts, one was more science. And I was just wondering if that was part of your magic formula.

Jenny Dinnen: No. I mean, everybody that meets us, someone will say, " Well, how do I know it was you and it wasn't your sister?" when I was talking to them. And I was like, " Listen, if you thought it was me, it wasn't her." Because we don't look anything. She's got curly hair and totally different. And she's off this weekend to go run a Ragnar Black Loop-

Dane Groeneveld: Oh, that sounds heavy.

Jenny Dinnen: ... 36mile something, I don't know. Insanity in the rain. And I'm more into the glamping situation.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, that's-

Jenny Dinnen: We are different on every level, yes.

Dane Groeneveld: That's so cool that you guys have been able to pull that off as not only as siblings but as twins. That's a really cool story. Final point, one of the themes that I heard you say, and there's been so much good stuff today, you talked about with your scenario planning, with this future of family business project, let's plan for where we want to be if dad doesn't retire or if X, Y, Z happens with communications, housing, whatever it might be. And then let's work backwards from it. We had Susanne Conrad, who previously been at Lululemon, running people and culture there.

Jenny Dinnen: Ah, yeah.

Dane Groeneveld: And she's developed this business now, Lightyear Leadership, I think it is. Where they actually go in and that's one of the first things they do, they help individuals set goals for the future self.

Jenny Dinnen: So awesome.

Dane Groeneveld: And it does pull you forward rather, get you out of the day to day. Am I sort of hearing that right, that that's part of what you're doing with this scenario planning? You do the various scenarios and then you find those common themes, those common base camp stepping stones?

Jenny Dinnen: Yes, yeah. I mean, on multiple levels. I mean, one, because I was chatting with somebody just about... You play out these scenarios and everybody can decide though, there's no right or wrong scenario because somebody can say, this is the future I want and this is the future I want. We're just talking about in the political world, there's scenarios that go out this way, depending on where people stand, their preferred future is, I don't know, smaller government, bigger government, da da da, whatever these things are. But let's say, together though, I think what really helps is, how do we map this all the way out? I mean, a different piece of this is I think a lot of people only think... We've such short attention spans. And then we're just thinking to one step. The other thing is the implication wheel. If I say, okay, if this happens, great. But, okay, now let's assume that happened, right? Let's assume that... I mean, even the CCPA, let's assume the data's privacy. I mean, I'm in the data space of here we are. Let's assume this happens. Let's assume that third party cookies go away. Let's assume, and we have to assume that's true. Okay, well, what would happen from there? Okay. And then what would happen out of there? We do these implication wheels because I would never... If I sit and say to somebody like, where are we going to be in the future? And we are like, I don't know, I can't even get my head straight about that. But if we incrementally do these scenario wheels, there's stuff that I would have never thought about. I will also say that doing futures work and strategic foresight work is a team sport. It's not something to be done alone. We have all of our biases all over the place. I mean, everyone's biased. I mean, there's no way you're not... I'm biased because I'm a girl and I'm a twin sister or a lady, whatever. I mean, I'm biased because I live in California and I own my own business. But how do we create other people in the room? And that was the beauty of going on these conferences and being around incredibly smart people that I would have never even thought about that. And then we go these places, then go all the way out, and then say, okay, if I want this to happen coming out here, what would happen? But a lot of times, businesses create their five- year plan like, okay, here we go.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. And then they're static.

Jenny Dinnen: And then we're going to go 10%, and then we Google top 10 trends in research. And first of all, by the time it's a trend, it's not the future because it's already happened. There's some misnomer there. And then they say, and this is where we're going to be. Everybody's working for this one number. Well, there's no way that that's... It just makes for very rigid companies. But if we've said-

Dane Groeneveld: It's not very exciting for the team either.

Jenny Dinnen: Well, that too. I mean, I guess if you're moving forward. But how do we become more agile, flexible for the future? Doesn't mean we're not all working towards our preferred goal, but we've played out other scenarios. And then if something happens, oh, we've got a flex, we've already thought about this. Oh, what if we... Whatever happens.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. I think it's huge. And I love the way you frame strategic foresight as a team sport, because it is.

Jenny Dinnen: 100%. It is. We can't sit in our office by ourselves and say, what should we do in the future? I mean, you can. But I think it's going to be very shortsighted.

Dane Groeneveld: You'd be an outlier, yeah.

Jenny Dinnen: Yeah, 100%. You need the whatever, the black swan.

Dane Groeneveld: That's it, the power of the stranger. I think, Alicia, who works with me on the show, she's-

Jenny Dinnen: Ooh, the power of the stranger.

Dane Groeneveld: There's a good study on that, yeah.

Jenny Dinnen: Ooh, I love that. Is that the one we're talking to strangers, the beauty of that? Isn't-

Dane Groeneveld: No. I think she's actually done light paper on it, so I won't butcher it. But it's more about-

Jenny Dinnen: Ooh.

Dane Groeneveld: ...when you bring someone from the outside, they don't have some of the same biases, some of the same issues, like fear of separation in a family- owned business. You don't want to say something mean to mother, brother, sister, dad, son, because you got to live with them. But the stranger doesn't have to go home and live with you all. They're more candid, courageous in their conversation and in their observations.

Jenny Dinnen: Mm- hmm. I love that, courageous. Oh my gosh.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, that's really cool.

Jenny Dinnen: There's so much...

Dane Groeneveld: There's so much good stuff. Well, it's been a pleasure. I can't believe that this time's already flown by.

Jenny Dinnen: ... Oh my god.

Dane Groeneveld: So many good things. I can't even play back a summary other than it's really cool that you are so attached and so passionate about family business. 70% of American business is family- owned, that you're changing this narrative.

Jenny Dinnen: Trying to.

Dane Groeneveld: You are changing it, even just this show, but this-

Jenny Dinnen: You know what? I am.

Dane Groeneveld: ...approach is really interesting if other family- owned businesses, if other businesses, full stop, want to reach out and learn more about Mackenzie Corporation and how to do some of this scenario planning, how do they best find you?

Jenny Dinnen: Yeah, Mackenzie Corp, M- A- C- K- E- N- Z- I- Ecorp. com, and very active on LinkedIn, Jenny Dinnen. I love conversations about any of this stuff. I mean, we're on kind of all, LinkedIn and Instagram and all of that and just our website. But reach out on LinkedIn. I would love to be able to. I'd love different thoughts and opinions and ideas, just different... Like I said, it's a team sport. I'd love other opinions on it. Like, no, that's wrong. Okay, let's talk about it.

Dane Groeneveld: Let's try it differently. Yeah, totally. Well, I'm definitely going to follow up and we're local enough so we can grab a coffee or lunch. And I'd love to see how we can be part of this future of family business project.

Jenny Dinnen: 100%. I'll take you up.

Dane Groeneveld: Cool.

Jenny Dinnen: Thank you.

Dane Groeneveld: Jenny, thanks so much for your time.

Jenny Dinnen: Thank you.