Zac Darnell: Welcome to Behind the Product, a podcast by SEP, where we believe it takes more than a great idea to make a great product. We've been around for over 30 years building software that matters more. And we've set out to explore the people, practices, and philosophies to try and capture what's behind great software products. So, join us on this journey of conversation with the folks that bring ideas to life. Hey, everybody, welcome to the show. I'm your host, Zac Darnell. Our guest for this show is Josh Driver, co- founder and CEO of Selflessly. Josh shared a lot about his product and service, but my favorite part of our conversation was how they pivoted during COVID last year. He shared one story in particular that I found really encouraging, and I think you'll enjoy it. My co- host is Traci Dossett, COO of SEP. Traci has been with us for over 25 years, and among her many responsibilities is very involved with our charitable activities. Both Josh and Traci are incredibly fun people, so I think you'll have a lot of fun with this one. Let's dive in. Hey, everybody! Welcome to the show. Josh, thank you for joining us, my friend.

Josh Driver: Thank you for having me.

Zac Darnell: Traci.

Traci Dossett: Hello.

Zac Darnell: Are you excited?

Traci Dossett: So excited.

Zac Darnell: You should be, because we're talking to Josh Driver.

Traci Dossett: One of my favorite humans.

Zac Darnell: I assumed to be one of my favorite humans, as I'm going to expect here. So, I'm excited.

Traci Dossett: Compared to the last.

Josh Driver: crosstalk you. This is great.

Zac Darnell: So, Josh, a little context for anybody that doesn't know who you are. Tell us a little bit about you and maybe like the elevator pitch for Selflessly.

Josh Driver: Yeah. So, 6'2", Capricorn, live in downtown Indianapolis, grew up in Indiana. Have been in tech, was a medical school dropout, and got into tech in 2008. I've been involved in several tech startups that have helped nonprofits over the years and got the little brain hemorrhage in the back that made me want to do another one. And so, here we are at Selflessly. So, to give just a quick pitch about my company, Selflessly. We're America's favorite certified B Corp. And we manage corporate philanthropy and social responsibility for small to medium sized companies.

Zac Darnell: That's really cool. So actually, can we talk about that for a second, this idea of a certified B Corp. What does that actually mean?

Josh Driver: I was hoping you knew.

Traci Dossett: It's not an A Corp.

Josh Driver: It's not.

Traci Dossett: It's like B tier? No, that's not it.

Josh Driver: Yeah. B, Beta. And so, we're here in Indiana. Indiana is one of 35 states that offer a benefit corp as a business filing. So, if you're familiar with LLCs, and C Corp. So, B Corp is essentially structured just like a C corp. The only differences is, is that we make a commitment to how we can be a benefit to stakeholders. So, we publish an impact report on how we give back and what we're doing to contribute to the benefit of society. But we also are a certified B Corp, which is about, I don't know, maybe 3, 000 companies now, that have this certification.

Zac Darnell: Nationally?

Josh Driver: Across the globe.

Zac Darnell: Oh, wow. Okay.

Josh Driver: So Big B corps, Patagonia, Ben and Jerry's, Tom's, Danone. We go through an assessment as far as our policy and procedures, what we're doing as a company, and you can get this certification by this third party. And so, in our space, we're helping companies do more good. We probably should be doing more great, quite frankly. And so, a lot of the B Corp certification is how I'd want the company to run anyways, so it wasn't a huge leap for us. You can go crazy and build a lead certified company and get points for that out of the budget for Q3, however, in our case. So, we made up for that with a diversity inclusion policy. A pet friendly office offering the best benefits for our employees healthcare wise, accounting transparency through our team. So, it doesn't mean you have to just throw cash into a bonfire for world peace to be a B Corp. You can feasibly do it without a big pivot in your business model.

Zac Darnell: Is this a recent certification? Or did you kind of know from the start that this was an angle that you want to take for the company?

Josh Driver: From the start.

Zac Darnell: Okay.

Josh Driver: So, when we launched our initial product with the city of Indianapolis, we went out for a certification the following week. We are the sixth company to get the certification in the States. But we were the first company to have both the business filing and the certification in Indiana. And so, it's big, every company who has a certified B Corp is a celebrity on the coast. Right here in the Midwest, it's a relatively, I guess, a lot of people think we're a nonprofit at first. And so, we've been doing a lot of education about what a B Corp is. And we're starting to see more of them come up now in Indiana, which I think is a good thing.

Zac Darnell: Do you think that has impacted the underlying either product or offering of Selflessly?

Josh Driver: We didn't get the B Corp certifications. Yeah, arguably, I'm sure there are companies that use it as a marketing mechanism, where we felt our mission is just to keep developing the best technology to help more companies, whether they want to be a B Corp or not. But how do we get them, at least adopting some of the B Corp mentality and the best way we can do that is to live it ourselves. The biggest benefit, in my opinion, for us to have it is, that no matter who is a stakeholder on a company, whether it's an investor or a board member, we still have the ability as founders to keep more of an expanded stakeholder focus. So, we of course, have our fiduciary responsibility. But we do have a leg to stand on if we want to be a carbon neutral, or carbon free office, or if we would ever take on like a board member that says no bulldogs in the office. Well, that would be their last day...

Traci Dossett: That will be a no.

Josh Driver: ...that willbe their last day at Selflessly. But it gives us some opportunity to make sure that we're still doing the best that we can, given our size. So that's where we leveraged it more so than the marketing kind of side.

Zac Darnell: Okay. I wonder is there, maybe there's not, this is an assumption, but is there a balancing act that you have to play because you're a certified B Corp? Because you're kind of in between a private for profit company and nonprofits that they're potentially serving? Does it create tension in that relationship?

Josh Driver: Actually, the opposite. So, nonprofits are starting to get under the gun of how they can innovate as well because fundraising is changing.

Zac Darnell: Yeah, especially in last year and a half, I imagine.

Josh Driver: It's been a clever time for the nonprofit industry, for sure. But some of the advisement that nonprofits are getting is why not build a for profit mechanism that could be a revenue generator for your nonprofit, as an alternative. So, B Corps, benefit corps, have been kind of a new way to bridge that gap. There really isn't any tax incentive to be one. But as far as maybe the transparency of how an organization operates, it does give validation to that if somebody is concerned about the ethics of a company, which is a growing concern from consumers and customers alike. So, by putting it all out there, I think it's the right thing to do and it keeps us in check in a good way, not that we would have gone off the rails and done anything bad. Maybe my co- founder, but not me.

Zac Darnell: Yeah.

Traci Dossett: Do you want to give a shout out to your co-founder? What's his name?

Zac Darnell: I think it starts with a Z, right? A similar name to me.

Josh Driver: Terry? No. Yes. Shout out to my co- founder, Zac, who unfortunately couldn't be with us today. I forgot to let him out of the crate.

Zac Darnell: Oh, yeah. I know.

Traci Dossett: You did not send him to the lake today?

Josh Driver: I did not. I think the lake needs a break from him too.

Zac Darnell: Yeah.

Traci Dossett: You touched on, well both of you did, COVID. A hot topic.

Zac Darnell: Yeah. Yeah.

Traci Dossett: How did you transition? So, I know we were engaging, SEP was engaging with you guys before. We all went home. Everybody kind of did their own volunteer thing that they felt was safe. And now, we've re engaged, and are looking forward to partnering together. But how did you guys make that transition and basically stay afloat?

Josh Driver: Yeah, we launched the platform in January of 2020.

Traci Dossett: Good timing. It's great.

Josh Driver: Perfect timing, boring year.

Zac Darnell: And you targeted, if I remember correctly, Netscape from a web browser perspective and Blackberries?

Josh Driver: Yeah, that was Blackberries, Netscape, graphing calculators where I have games on.

Zac Darnell: That's right.

Traci Dossett: Oh nice, yeah.

Josh Driver: The important ones.

Zac Darnell: Okay. Okay.

Josh Driver: Looking at the device utilization, that's the big... I'm not going to tell anybody how to innovate, but definitely take a second look at Texas Instruments. We launched at the beginning of January and quickly realized that COVID was going to be a thing and it was going to affect everybody. So, we didn't know how our beta companies were going to react to this, what this was going to look like. Our software can't be reconfigured to build ventilators as far as I know.

Traci Dossett: Maybe.

Josh Driver: It might be. I have limited knowledge on the code side.

Traci Dossett: An expert.

Josh Driver: Yeah. Right. But we definitely, the nonprofit's that we had engaged as part of our focus group on how do we build this, so it's not overwhelming to nonprofits. We engage with them about like, " What's this mean for you? What are you concerned about?" And so, we stopped development. And we were engaging companies, but the companies were kind of unsure on what they were going to do and if they were going to go remote and everything. And so, we thought the best use of our resources and time at this point is, let's figure out how we can help. And so, we partnered with CICF and Leadership Indianapolis, Serve Indiana, which is a division of the Department of Workforce and Development AmeriCorps to create virtual give back. We did a virtual giveback campaign. And so, on the dev side, we reconfigured the app to provide a free volunteer management platform for nonprofits instead of having to pay for it. So, let's reduce the financial burden for nonprofits. And then, we created a webinar series and support around technology and what technology could do for nonprofits. And so, we brought subject matter experts in, to talk about platforms and where to save money, how to build a website yourself. We built a website for a nonprofit internally. We also offered online meditation and some self- care for the terminal empaths that are executive directors of nonprofits.

Zac Darnell: That's awesome.

Josh Driver: And then, we focused as well as how nonprofits could come together and partner and share resources. And so, I would say, it wasn't exactly like a sales mechanism for us, but it was cathartic. We were able to engage people that we wanted to get feedback on our app. But at the same time, I think everybody could use some silver lining good stories.

Traci Dossett: Totally.

Zac Darnell: Oh yeah.

Josh Driver: So, it was nice to be a part of that. And so, once people started to settle into the remote workforce, then the issue came up, " How do I engage my employees now that I can't see them every day? How are we going to make sure that they're still connected to our brand, to our culture?" And so, that was a benefit of our platform to help with employee engagement remotely. So, we spent extra time working on converting volunteer opportunities to virtual ones, and really building up a good catalog of ways that people could get back from home, involve their kids, involve their families. We did a big push around Thanksgiving, " Hey, you're all at home. Let's download a coloring book from the Indianapolis Indians, color that, and let's send those to Riley Children's Hospital for kids that are in the hospital." So, we did a bunch of what can we do to just keep people engaged. So, it gave us a challenge. I got to use all four corners of the brain, which was nice.

Zac Darnell: Yeah.

Traci Dossett: Nice.

Josh Driver: I've since shut all of those down. We're all in one cylinder here.

Traci Dossett: Just one.

Josh Driver: Just one.

Traci Dossett: Which one?

Josh Driver: Yeah. The left corner.

Zac Darnell: Left quadrant.

Josh Driver: Passenger side. Quarter panel, that one. But yeah, that was an interesting time. But I think we learned a lot about how we wanted to be as a company and how we want to prioritize things. I mean, it was a clever time, revenue wise, but we run incredibly lean as a company. My co- founder, Zac, won't let me get a Tesla. I mean, you want to talk about toxic workplace environment? Yeah.

Traci Dossett: I suppose he's HR too. I can't even record him.

Josh Driver: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. He's all the things.

Traci Dossett: You're captive.

Josh Driver: I know. It is.

Traci Dossett: That's not right.

Josh Driver: He took my credit card away, he took my passwords away, so I can't break anything. It's honestly, it's just been very challenging time.

Traci Dossett: We're here to help.

Josh Driver: Thank you.

Traci Dossett: You're welcome.

Josh Driver: I appreciate that. We'll call him. This is my crosstalk.

Traci Dossett: We'll call Zac after. We'll have a talk on your behalf.

Josh Driver: Yeah. So, we definitely had to adjust our expectations about how we were going to end up the year. But philanthropy and the needs of nonprofits weren't going away.

Zac Darnell: Sure.

Josh Driver: And so, maybe the easiest thing would have been to put the platform on a sabbatical and come back when normal happens, but there was just too much of a need. So, we partnered with the Young Professionals of Central Indiana, women in High- Tech, and gave free access to the system. Because all these membership organizations have super talented smart people that are sitting at home, that could be giving their skills to a nonprofit. So, we just turned off the paywall and gave these skilled volunteers access to be able to go and get out and find stuff to do.

Zac Darnell: What did you find as a result of that?

Josh Driver: Interestingly enough, we have in our system almost 90, 000 volunteer opportunities and we found that people know where they want to give, they know how they want to give, where they want to be, what organizations, what causes. They don't need somebody to create a marketplace anymore. And so, we're investing in mechanism to create more of a nonprofit product. Whereas we really are finding more participation adoption by just giving access to the employee to make their impact where they want. And at the same time too increasing participation by working directly with the company to create opportunities that are inclusive of everybody's interests. So, and that's where we find, our goal is to get 100% participation and utilization of these benefits. So why not? Why not do it this way instead of just throwing, a campaign at somebody and expecting them to participate? That does not work.

Traci Dossett: So, along those lines, you talked about revenue being interesting last year, right? You're growing, and then coupled with employees know what they want to engage in and getting their employers that information. I think that ties in well with an acquisition that you just made not too long ago. So, do you want to talk about it?

Josh Driver: Yeah, in January, we have the honor of acquiring a company called Employee Vitals, which was created by these two dynamic women based out of Kansas City that have worked in the philanthropy space for a long time. They created Employee Vitals, basically, for two reasons. One, companies at the leadership level, are really curious to know what are our employees into? And what are they doing, perhaps even outside of like the normal work day. So, Employee Vitals is an assessment that employee can take to provide that information. But at the same time, we have archetypes, activator, enterpriser, and like a doer, so to speak. People want to get back in different ways. Whether it's, " I want to write a check and call it a day. I've got other things I want to do." Or maybe, "I'm not able to write a big check this year, but I'd love to put some trees in the ground or mentor a student." The third kind of networker archetype or people that, " I want to be on a board." Or" I know somebody that could help." The people that know people.

Traci Dossett: Connectors.

Josh Driver: Connector. Thank you. Yeah, that's what we can call that.

Zac Darnell: Ooh.

Josh Driver: Ooh. Perfect.

Traci Dossett: Can you call that the Traci Dossett's friend?

Josh Driver: I might.

Traci Dossett: Okay.

Josh Driver: I might. We're still catching up from the Paul Pringle Sprint, but we could probably work on that.

Traci Dossett: Sure, that's oaky.

Josh Driver: So, we acquired this company, because we found that the missing link next was the personalization of our platform. So, you can donate to any of the 1. 8 million nonprofits through our system or volunteer over 90, 000. But we found that in previous philanthropic campaigns, companies were doing that there was an expectation that employees were going to give. And so, there's a bias if an employee didn't donate, that maybe they're not connected to the culture of the company. And that's a really unfair representation. We don't know, you don't know what health issues an employee may have or cut student loans or murder hornets, who knows? There's always... And it's really become unfair to depend on financial contributions is the only way and equating that to purpose in the workplace is really a disservice to everybody. So, by us being able to create the archetype and provide more information about what enterpriser and networker is, like, " Hey, you're more likely to be interested in being a board member. If you want to be... If you want to provide more financial resources, here's different ways that you can contribute financially that isn't just going to their website and swiping a card. So, we want people to lean into their role as a philanthropist and really be confident how they want to participate is okay and needed. I mean, we philanthropy nonprofits are always hitting everybody up for money because money is the easiest thing.

Traci Dossett: Right.

Zac Darnell: And it's important.

Josh Driver: It is. It is important. But how can we not lose that donor if maybe this month isn't a good time?

Zac Darnell: Sure.

Josh Driver: So, let's try to elevate and equate volunteerism to the financial contribution.

Traci Dossett: What is one of the activities that you've seen run through your app? What's the most interesting, like, " Oh, I would never have thought, and that sounds amazing." Or maybe the most engaged in?

Josh Driver: What's so hot right now in volunteering? Would you say?

Traci Dossett: Sure. I mean, maybe it was one, two years ago, I don't know. But one that really just stood out to you, either participation level or just cool factor.

Josh Driver: Yeah. So, we have the opportunity to partner with Adult& Child Health here in Indianapolis. So, when the vaccination started to get released, they were able to set up vaccination clinics around Central Indiana. Their staffing was all nurses. So, the nurses had limited appointment capability, because they were also doing the appointment taking and helping find parking and registration. So, we were able to partner with them and create volunteer opportunities for the front of the office so that we could expand the volunteer or expand the appointments that were available for people to get the vaccine. So, through our system, our corporate users then could sign up for volunteer opportunities. They also got the vaccination for participating.

Traci Dossett: Incentive. Nice.

Josh Driver: Yeah. And so, we had every shift filled in all their locations twice a day.

Traci Dossett: That's fantastic.

Josh Driver: It was incredible. And so, the clinic was able to offer more appointments and get more people, especially their patient population is more of the underserved, indigent. So, being able to get them in and vaccinated was a pretty big deal to help out with the community. So, I was proud of our little do- gooders for getting out there and helping.

Traci Dossett: Well, we already overburdened health care workers were then actually just getting to do health care and not having to do all the administrative stuff too. So, that's awesome.

Josh Driver: And we integrated meal trains too for the frontline workers, so people could buy Qdoba for St. Vincent's ER and those kinds of things. So, it was really fun. If I had the time, I just like to sit and brainstorm cool ways that people could give back. And so maybe someday.

Traci Dossett: Maybe Zac will let you. Maybe you could go to the lake.

Josh Driver: I don't even know where the lake is. None of it makes sense, honestly.

Traci Dossett: It's fine.

Josh Driver: That's right.

Traci Dossett: We're going to talk about it.

Josh Driver: I appreciate it, however we can.

Traci Dossett: We will.

Josh Driver: Thank you. Thank you.

Zac Darnell: So, I'm kind of curious. It sounds like, like a lot of companies. There was a huge pivot last year. Do anything that you were, I don't know, surprised by or taken off guard a little bit that maybe ended up being better than you thought?

Josh Driver: Well, our first quarter this year, we actually doubled our growth.

Zac Darnell: Wow.

Josh Driver: Yeah, in just the first quarter.

Traci Dossett: Congratulations.

Josh Driver: Yeah. Thank you very much. More bulldogs.

Traci Dossett: Yey!

Josh Driver: I'm into bulldogs now.

Zac Darnell: No Tesla, though.

Traci Dossett: No Tesla.

Josh Driver: Not a Tesla. We found that along with COVID, along with social issues, like Black Lives Matter, a lot of the other things that popped up in 2020 really put a spotlight on the strategic philanthropy that companies provide, and how maybe superficial actual philanthropy has become. And increasing number of consumers, employees want that strategic to turn authentic, and they want to see more work done than just a LinkedIn manifesto or the changing of the logo color. And that's a burden that unfortunately, typically falls on HR. And it's not like they have other things going on.

Traci Dossett: Right. Right. Right. Just a few.

Josh Driver: They do, right? So here, this entire movement that we need to respond to that there's no blog...

Traci Dossett: I was going to say, are there still guidelines for this?

Josh Driver: ... and how to respond.crosstalk step one. And so, we were surprised to see how often we were getting new companies that would come in, because an employee heard about us and went to their HR and was like, " Hey, this might be a tool that can help us to do a better job." And so, good for us. But also, an interesting kind of perspective on who's really driving the next kind of version of what philanthropy is going to look like moving forward. So generally, we meet with the leadership of a company.

Traci Dossett: That's older folks. Is that what you're saying?

Josh Driver: No. I would say leadership.

Traci Dossett: Okay.

Josh Driver: There's no, I mean, 27. That not older.

Traci Dossett: Bless you.

Josh Driver: So, but it was interesting to see how much employees wanted there... We had a user that was at one of our companies and then left to go to another company and they asked during the interview, " Do you use Selflessly?"

Traci Dossett: Oooh.

Josh Driver: And so, the MAC company reached out...

Traci Dossett: That's huge.

Josh Driver: ...because they hadn't heardof us, which I thought was really odd. Who hasn't heard of me?

Traci Dossett: Right.

Josh Driver: @joshdrivershow on Twitter. So, it's been interesting to watch more of the employee movement grow our company more so than the attention to what makes it easier for the C suite to market their good stuff?

Zac Darnell: It doesn't mean, having an employee want to use a tool, but then also as an added benefit. I would imagine you make HR and operations and any group within a given organization that might be handling philanthropic efforts for our business as a side hustle so much easier and better.

Traci Dossett: Oh yeah.

Zac Darnell: I mean, it's kind of a double win.

Josh Driver: So, every year, the Institute of Philanthropy published a study. They surveyed 500 companies. It's estimated that about$ 10 billion and earmarked, whether its funds, matching donations, skilled volunteer hours, or product earmarked to go to nonprofits gets undistributed each year.

Zac Darnell: Wow.

Traci Dossett: Ten billion.

Josh Driver: Billion with a B, like B Corp.

Zac Darnell: Whoa.

Josh Driver: Yeah.

Traci Dossett: Well done.

Josh Driver: So how do we get having 10... How do you get...

Zac Darnell: Yeah. That's a lot.

Josh Driver: That's a lot.

Traci Dossett: Yeah.

Josh Driver: That can make some serious change.

Zac Darnell: Absolutely.

Josh Driver: And so, how do we get that out there?

Zac Darnell: Yeah.

Traci Dossett: Yeah.

Josh Driver: And so, we unlock it. I keep that up on the wall in my office because that's kind of where the innovation is like, how do we get that 10 billion out there? And what does that mean? And so, a lot of how we created our product roadmap is how do we increase the channels, the ways that people can contribute no matter where they are in their career or economic stability can still provide that stuff, because it's just, it's a shame that it's so difficult to do that.

Traci Dossett: Absolutely. That ties into something I wanted to ask you. What about Selflessly? And maybe it's Huckleberry, I don't know, makes you want to get up and do it every day?

Josh Driver: Wow, that's a deep question.

Traci Dossett: We should probably tell people who Huckleberry is.

Josh Driver: Huckleberry is our chief culture officer. He's two years old. He's an English bulldog.

Zac Darnell: Oh, man.

Josh Driver: Yeah. He types 40 words per minute without having thumbs. We're really proud of them.

Traci Dossett: Well done. Well done, Huckleberry.

Josh Driver: He was my foster. He was a foster dog and I foster failed and had to keep him. And so, he hangs out the office with me and shows up on Zoom calls and derails any productivity...

Traci Dossett: Fantastic.

Josh Driver: ... thatwe have. So, he's doing a great job. He'll get a good review this year. But I would say what keeps getting me up is our support. Our chat support is filled with employees that are reaching out to ask about what they can do. Or if we publish, so recently, we put into the system a way to donate to India because of the COVID issues they're having right now. So instead of having to figure out what nonprofit or what organization is leading that, we did that ahead of time. And so then to see the donations being hit by our users to go support. I need the cathartic stuff sometimes.

Traci Dossett: Yeah.

Zac Darnell: Yeah.

Josh Driver: The reminder that we have good humans.

Traci Dossett: Absolutely right.

Josh Driver: And so, it's a nice thing to wake up and look at the inaudible. " Oh, they are kind people."

Zac Darnell: Yeah.

Traci Dossett: There's a lot of them.

Zac Darnell: They exist.

Traci Dossett: Yeah.

Josh Driver: And seeing the need for nonprofit... If a nonprofit has a specific need that they're requesting or there's a bunch of energy at a company where they're like, " We don't know what to do, but we want to do something." That's what drives me because how can you not want to foster that? crosstalk fall? We don't want to lose that energy.

Traci Dossett: Yeah. So, we're sitting here, the Palladium, we can see it. If you're listening online, you can't see it, but it's there.

Josh Driver: It is there.

Traci Dossett: And there are a lot of cars today. And so, I've sat and watched this beautiful facility be empty for over a year. So, there must be some kind of an event happening, which makes my heart so happy. Are you starting to see the nonprofit's that you engaged with? Are they getting an uptick in engagement and events and things?

Josh Driver: Oh, slowly but surely. Everybody's masked mandates and capacities are all over the board. So, I think we have probably another 30 to 60, 90 days of this gray area. But to your point, definitely seeing more participation. Food pantries and stuff. We're trying to report more people are volunteering. And so, we're seeing more interaction in person that was gone for such a long time.

Traci Dossett: Good. Good.

Zac Darnell: Yeah.

Josh Driver: So, there's hope.

Traci Dossett: That's good. I'm good.

Zac Darnell: I have to hope for the summer. Folks are probably more comfortable getting outside during this kind of transition gray area time, and maybe I think of things like Habitat for Humanity. You're typically outside working on somebody's house. And it might be more comfortable, hopefully, those kinds of opportunities will start to...

Zac Darnell: Yeah.

Josh Driver: Yeah.

Zac Darnell: That'd

Zac Darnell: be awesome.

Josh Driver: I think, we will get there.

Zac Darnell: Yeah.

Josh Driver: We'll get there.

Traci Dossett: We will.

Zac Darnell: So, I'm kind of curious a little bit about the future. You've talked about this pivot. And actually a few months ago, we talked to Stephanie Ragozzino. She's the chief product officer of OneCause and she talked a lot about how the nonprofit space was kind of forced to pivot maybe sooner than they expected to change their fundraising models to be less event based and more, not necessarily like MRR base, but just on a more regular basis. How do they engage with their donors on a more regular basis outside of just these events and how that was something that they could see on the horizon and the pandemic just almost forced it to happen sooner? And that could be a permanent change to that industry. Do you see other things in the philanthropic space maybe that has had a similar impact from the last 15, 16 months?

Josh Driver: I think Stephanie is right. There was looming with the implementation of platforms like Charity Navigator and GuideStar. And having the increased transparency about how nonprofits operate, for better or for worse, has really changed that space. Even in the feedback from our users. At times, their feedback was like," I just don't want to go to a black- tie event because I'd rather than, instead of spending money on that venue, let's just put that towards the mission. I don't need to go and see a fire breather or whatever, the entertainment." And so, that was becoming apparent pre COVID that like, " Hey, are we spending money in the right way and maximizing our opportunity here?" And I think COVID really accelerated the decision about how to maybe stop investing so much in the frills and really getting down to the mission. And I think that will come out of that in the same focus. Like we think of rev for the Health Foundation or Zoobilation. I think there's always a place for those.

Traci Dossett: Yeah.

Zac Darnell: Sure.

Josh Driver: But I think that, from a fundraising perspective, there's a lot of discussion around being more inclusive of fundraising. When you're fundraising, you're looking for the people with money, certain demographic, but your donors come in different shapes and sizes and colors now. So, Zoobilation, and I love the zoo. But it's an expensive ticket.

Zac Darnell: Yeah.

Traci Dossett: Yeah.

Josh Driver: A very expensive ticket. And how do we create more inclusive fundraising or get people connected to the organization? So, if right now they can't write a$10, 000, check, let's be friends with them till they get to the point where they can write it. So, I really think that fundraising is going to adapt. We kind of feel that it's just as effective to start with a volunteer opportunity and sell them on your organization for a longer- term engagement, and then convert them into donors in the future.

Zac Darnell: Right. Right.

Josh Driver: So, we're not personally in the fundraising section. We leave that to OneCause and Steve could probably beat me up in bar fight. So, I'm not going to get in his way. But I think that what nonprofits really need is coordination on behalf of companies to get their employees out into the community. Because there's always a guilt component with people that do have volunteer time, but that hasn't really been kind of pushed by the company. It's like, " Well, I'm going to take this day off. I really don't have the time." So, the employee empowerment kind of methodology is where we think that a lot of first steps can come for, especially with people who feel like they haven't been able to do anything during COVID to help fix any of these issues. That let's work on that momentum right. You can get back to it. Now pick your cause and get to work. So, that's our plan based on no data, just what we think is going to be a helpful, addition to the nonprofit space.

Zac Darnell: I love it. I'm kind of curious, also kind of peering in the future. If I'm understanding it correctly, you guys just Closed Round recently. Yes?

Josh Driver: Yes.

Zac Darnell: Congratulations.

Josh Driver: Thank you.

Zac Darnell: What do you think the next six to 12 months looks like for you guys?

Josh Driver: Yeah. So, our growth so far has been organic. We really haven't launched the technical go to market plan or any brand building initiatives. We really went into like disaster mode to help connect people. And that's what we focused on. We just wrapped up a re- platforming of our app into a more secure, scalable environment because our MVP was starting to send me the alerts of this. crosstalk. We're in danger girl, that type of thing. So now that that's complete, and we're starting to onboard companies faster. Everything has been organic and word of mouth. And so, this round is really focused on getting our brand out there and starting a real a new discussion around what philanthropy looks like. Big companies, Salesforce, Coca, Cola, Microsoft, these are the companies we always hear that are doing everything which is great. But it doesn't really resonate with a company that doesn't have a complete CSR department to do all this stuff. So, there's not a lot of discussion about how small and medium size and our definition is small to medium size is up to a thousand employees. What can they do to give back? Because they're not a publicly traded Fortune 50 company.

Traci Dossett: Right.

Zac Darnell: Right. Yeah.

Josh Driver: And so, that's where we want to create a new conversation about... Yes, everybody can give back. It doesn't mean you have to take your 401K and reinvest it or not have that kid because you've got too much volunteer stuff. There are ways to still give back and make a decent impact. And so, that message needs to get out there and we need to have the resources to go tell our story. So that's the plan.

Traci Dossett: I'm going to say something really cheesy. Are you ready.?

Zac Darnell: Do it. Yes.

Traci Dossett: So well, it stuck with me, you said, our software doesn't magically switch over to creating ventilators. But I'm listening to you talk about how you guys transition during COVID. And this is really where it's cheesy, it's kind of a lifeline to the nonprofit's that you're helping. And then, I think about the volunteers and the struggles that people have had with mental health concerns over COVID. And their ability to be able to feel like they're providing some value. People just really thought, " I'm stuck at home. What's the point of all?" So it has been a ventilator, Josh.

Josh Driver: inaudible You're so kind.

Traci Dossett: It's just a different kind.

Josh Driver: Well, I think, we as tech companies, and maybe this will resonate with your audience, I think that we all have a responsibility. Not every feature that we build has to be a revenue generator. And there are issues that affect our staff, and people in our industry, like mental health, financial instability. So, in our app, we have links to mental health providers, not because we have to, or there's like some revenue share. It's just if our app is the way that somebody finds a link to better help or a local account like... Good. We also include pronouns, filtering for gender neutral bathrooms, because an employee may not be comfortable going to HR and be like, " Hey, I'm in transition" or" I'm really struggling emotionally." And so. we've purposely put, Easter eggs isn't the right word, but little things here and there in our app, just as if this comes across. And maybe even down the road, they're like, "Oh, I remember Selflessly had this phone number I could call." Nothing great. It's not our part of our roadmap, but we're always looking at ways to put little things in there that maybe can develop a better connection for some more wellness opportunities...

Traci Dossett: So thoughtful.

Josh Driver: ...if possible.

Traci Dossett: Now you know why he's one of my favorite humans.

Zac Darnell: I understand now.

Traci Dossett: I mean, right?

Zac Darnell: I understand.

Traci Dossett: I know.

Josh Driver: I really appreciate like even just being willing to, this is our first show that we've recorded in person, so that number one...

Traci Dossett: Yeah.

Josh Driver: I love this.

Zac Darnell: crosstalk I'm almost like, I don't know how to have a conversation because I've been doing this over Zoom for so long, it's really nice. But then, I just love what you're doing. And if you were going to do a quick shameless plug, before we wrap up, what would you want either an employee that's going to go talk to HR or in an interview, say about Selflessly or what a company should know about, maybe the key thing that you guys bring to them, the benefit?

Josh Driver: Yeah. We want to eliminate the barriers to giving back. If you are an overworked HR person that's being forced to figure out how to do this or you're an employee that would really like to see your employer ramp up a little bit of their community engagement. Or if you're a company that doesn't know where to start or wants to become a B Corp, you're our BFF like, that's who we want to talk to. We're technically a vendor, but really, we're a partner. And the more that we can do for our customers, the more software we can build that helps even more people connect with a nonprofit community. So, no matter who you are, there's an opt- in form on our website for you. At selflessly. io, and if you're lucky and land on the website, you may see this as the Cardi B of philanthropy depending on when you refresh the website.

Traci Dossett: I'm going to go like click, click, click.

Josh Driver: It's super random and I don't understand when it shows up. It's not, it's...

Traci Dossett: Whose idea? Whose idea? What do you mean?

Josh Driver: Huckleberry's obviously. Yeah.

Traci Dossett: Totally.

Josh Driver: But yeah, it usually says, Give Back Selflessly. But sometimes...

Traci Dossett: Refresh. Refresh.

Josh Driver: ...when you refresh it with all the...

Traci Dossett: The Cardi B...

Zac Darnell: I'm sitting here refreshing.

Traci Dossett: You screenshot that and we'll share it out.

Josh Driver: We do. Yeah. Like the Cardi B of philanthropy. Philanthropy is cool, Mom,

Traci Dossett: Nice.

Josh Driver: I don't know. We want to be less corporate and more like a bestie...

Traci Dossett: ...more like you.

Josh Driver: I mean, your words. But I mean, you could do worse. You could do worse.

Traci Dossett: You could do worse.

Zac Darnell: Josh and Traci, thank you so much.

Traci Dossett: Yeah.

Josh Driver: Thank you.

Zac Darnell: This was fun.

Traci Dossett: Yeah, that was fun.

Zac Darnell: You just have a wonderful rest of your day.

Traci Dossett: You too.

Josh Driver: Yeah, you too.

Zac Darnell: Traci, we just got done talking to Josh Driver and I had a lot of fun. He's a fun guy. I learned a lot too. I learned more than I realized or than I really expected to, to be honest.

Traci Dossett: Yeah.

Zac Darnell: But I'm curious. What did you walk away with? Because you know, Josh.

Traci Dossett: Yeah. He's fun, right?

Zac Darnell: Yeah, quite hilarious. The stuff that we didn't record was even funnier.

Traci Dossett: I know. You should have him back and just do not a product focus, just a-

Zac Darnell: Just a conversation to catch up.

Traci Dossett: The world's most interesting man.

Zac Darnell: Yeah, yeah.

Traci Dossett: He would like that.

Zac Darnell: That'd be a lot of fun.

Traci Dossett: I didn't realize the need...

Zac Darnell: Yeah.

Traci Dossett: ...which he touched on. I think the thing that just really resonated with me about what Selflessly accomplished last year is just how they had to switch. Outside observer, a big fan of theirs for a long time, and not knowing how that was going to play out. I saw the impact that it had on nonprofits, just around our community and how they just pivoted and stepped up to help. So, I think he was being very humble when he's like, " Well, we didn't make ventilators." But they did and they kept some of these organizations afloat and gave an outlet for people.

Zac Darnell: There's so many companies jumped in to, offered their service for free last year. But it felt like they went a step further and how do we get community engagement while we're all separated?

Traci Dossett: Absolutely.

Zac Darnell: Not in community like in some ways. I just absolutely love that hearing some of the stories that...

Traci Dossett: ...like the nurses and getting volunteers to help out that goes smoothly,

Zac Darnell: It's just amazing. I feel like sometimes, we can kind of have this, it's easy to have this woe is me, or dismal societal view of life. And then the stories of how people come together, it's like, " Ah, yes."

Traci Dossett: Yeah.

Zac Darnell: This is what's really going on in a lot of ways.

Traci Dossett: Well, and the thoughtfulness of, he mentioned putting the mental health links in there or just providing that extra touch. I think that, doesn't again, he said, it's not a revenue generator. It's not the main focus of their product, but just being thoughtful enough about and caring enough about his community and users, that something that they implemented.

Zac Darnell: Yeah, it's kind of interesting to think about, we build products for a living. And I feel like we often get in conversations with clients about what's your most important value add to your users. And sometimes, it's easy to miss the opportunity for the little touches in products. And I love hearing how they have and he has taken just small bits of opportunities to provide a little extra.

Traci Dossett: Absolutely.

Zac Darnell: It was really cool. Also, I had no idea what a certified B Corp was. I knew that they were one and I purposely did not Google it, so that I could just kind of learn on the fly. That's a really cool mechanism.

Traci Dossett: It is when I initially heard of it assumed, like he touched on that there was some sort of a tax favorable status, but that there's not and you're really just doing it.

Zac Darnell: Because that's what you want to do.

Traci Dossett: To be good.

Zac Darnell: Yeah.

Traci Dossett: To be good.

Zac Darnell: So, it's really cool.

Traci Dossett: It is very cool. And I didn't realize he listed a couple of big companies like Ben and Jerry's and Patagonia. I didn't realize that they were certified B Corps too.

Zac Darnell: That's really cool. I had no idea Tom's. Although now, thinking about Patagonia and Tom's, I don't know much about Ben and Jerry's, like their model.

Traci Dossett: Totally.

Zac Darnell: Oh, that makes sense.

Traci Dossett: He was wearing Tom's yesterday, too. I wonder if there's like a B Corp.

Zac Darnell: Discount?

Traci Dossett: inaudible

Zac Darnell: They can roll together...

Traci Dossett: Maybe so.

Zac Darnell: Let's get each other's swag and...

Traci Dossett: Should be. Totally.

Zac Darnell: It should be like a little club.

Traci Dossett: You should do that, Josh.

Zac Darnell: There's only 3, 000 of them in the whole world.

Traci Dossett: Right.

Zac Darnell: It's amazing. And then, I'm excited about the future. They just bought a company and I think we're getting ready to kind of use some of that analytics and things, sounds a company. I'm excited to try that myself as a user.

Traci Dossett: Yep. Rahman and I did a test demo of the survey that they'll send out and covered up some questions that we'd like included in there. But I think it's going to be really great because companies, we want to know what our employees are doing. But not we're tracking way.

Zac Darnell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Traci Dossett: How can we better facilitate engagement with our community? And some people really want, " I just want to do my own thing" and they'll have an opportunity to share that or" No, I really want you, like SEP to provide family activities where we can go and serve together." So, I'm excited about that and getting that set up and then starting to use the Selflessly app.

Zac Darnell: It's so it's so fun to be like the person behind the user screen sometimes. When we're when we're so much helping other people do it. It's like, " Oh, well. We get to be on the other side of the screen now. So, have fun."

Traci Dossett: You can report your feature requests yourself.

Zac Darnell: Nice. Yes.

Traci Dossett: It's full circle.

Zac Darnell: Yes, it's a full circle of products. The last thing that stood out to me, and I never really thought about philanthropy that way, or myself as a clinical philanthropist, but anybody who helps another person in some ways is a philanthropist whether it's through money, time, resources, knowledge, whatever.

Traci Dossett: Yep. The whole time, talent, treasures.

Zac Darnell: Yeah.

Traci Dossett: I mean, he's right. These organizations, of course, they want the huge donors. But I've seen in situations and serving that I've done, if somebody can give an hour to come in, box up food or shop with someone or inaudible brand of Walmart and pick up a pair of socks and drop them off. We've done that here. It's just, it's a huge impact, even though it feels like it's something very small.

Zac Darnell: It's true. That's so true. Well, thank you for joining me for this show.

Traci Dossett: Absolutely.

Zac Darnell: I love fun.

Traci Dossett: Same.

Zac Darnell: We have to do this again.

Traci Dossett: My first podcast.

Zac Darnell: You did great.

Traci Dossett: Thank you.

Zac Darnell: Go team. All right, y'all. Well, we hope you enjoyed the show. I'll see you next time.

Traci Dossett: Bye-bye.