Making Outbound Work For You

Darryl Praill: ...Everybody doing today? I'm in a good mood. You're already saying," Why?" Well, as you know, the accent always gives it away. I'm Canadian and many of you take great joy and pleasure in mocking my outs and my abouts. But I do like to remind, especially all the folks from the Boston area, that at least in Canada, we know how to say the letter R and we don't drop it. In fact, it's funny because whenever I watch Home and Garden TV, true story, we watch the American shows. We have Canadian shows and American shows, obviously, in our HGTV, but we watch the American shows. They always talk about when they're going to walk into the foyer, the foyer, and that sounds right to every single American listener now." Yeah. The foyer." You see, in Canada, we all laugh and laugh at you because it's not the foyer, it's the foy-er. It's a French word, foy- er. It's a foy- er, but you guys love the foyer. So hey, pro- cess, process, schedule, shedule, outs and abouts. This is what makes the world go around. Ain't it the truth? No matter how you sound, I'm thrilled you're here. Welcome back. I had the opportunity to talk to some really smart people in the last couple of days and I was sharing with them a story, that I started to think," You know what? I bet you, you guys would love to hear this story." It was a personal story. It was really, we were talking about," Hey, Daryl, you've been CRO for, geez, how long has it going on, nine months?" Pretty much this month, going on nine months." How's it going? What have been your biggest challenges? Are you tracking? What do you think of the role? Would you take the job again, if it was offered to you all over again?" I shared that over the last three months, especially, I've really started to feel like a CRO. This is going to sound bad because you would say," Well, what does it good CRO feel like Darryl?" I'd say," Well, a CRO to me, it feels like I am immersed. I'm all in on sales," because before when I was CM, I was all in on marketing and you would say, rightfully," Well, Darryl isn't that just a VP of sales then if you're all in on sales? Aren't you supposed to be the sales and marketing guy? You own it all. You're the guy making sure everybody's aligned." The answer is," Yes," but of course I already understood marketing and was aligned with them. My biggest thing was making sure that a large portion of my time, my mindset and my thinking, my big picture, the moves I'm making are sales- centric and I really feel like I'm there. The thing I was sharing was the biggest challenge we've had was a decision I made early on when I took over, was to try to grow the average deal size and really grow our market share and our target industries. To do that, I made a choice to go all in on account- based marketing. We were historically an inbound company, so when I say inbound, basically the majority of the leads were coming to us through marketing efforts: pay- per- click events, trade shows, content, whatever, organic traffic, et cetera. So if you're an historically inbound shop, then you understand what I'm saying. If you're a historically outbound shop, then you can just tune out now and ignore the rest of this episode, unless you just want to sit back and mock me or go on social and add comments to whatever I forget to say, which I encourage both. So basically, we adopted a double funnel, right? You have Demand Gen inbound and then we have outbound ABM. What I did not anticipate, I was all in. I'm a convert. I believe in it. I've said this before, ABM has been around for decades and decades and decades. In the'90s, basically, it was what? IBM, what people would refer to as target account selling. But the technology today allows you to do so much more amazing stuff, and influence and targeting and it's crazy. So clearly, it's come into its own, which is why I pursued it. But the challenge that I didn't expect, and this is the challenge that every single one listening to this who is making this transition, I suspect, will relate to, or, you're going to naively say,"Praill, you're stupid." I will retort saying," Then you haven't got it yet," which is the transition from being an inbound rep to an outbound rep is huge. Nobody truly understands the consequences and the effort and the cultural shift and the sales methodology and the approach you take when you make that transition. Think about it, all right. Inbound, they're just coming to you and you're like," Yeah, you found me, which means you've already got high intent because you found me. You've declared you've got a problem you've said,'Maybe you guys can help solve it.' So now it's just a matter of do you have your credit card handy? Is that one seat or 10 or 25? Oh, who signs off on the PO? Great. Let's get them involved. Boom done. Thank you. Have a great day." Hands you off to customer success. But on ABM, I felt like outbound, it's a different world. Now, it's like," Okay, these are the accounts we want you to go after and they may or may not have shown any interest and we're going to market to them to soften the beach a little bit so then you can storm and take it, but you're all on your own. Yeah. We'll give you tools. We have conversational intelligence and we have sales enablement and you got LinkedIn Premium Navigator, whatever the hell you want to call it these days and you're a rockstar, but you're on your own." Go figure out who to talk to, who the buying committee is, why they care. By the way, you've got to become an expert in that industry and you've got to reorganize your entire day because now it's all on you to immerse yourself in their life. You can't just know your feature. Now, you got to understand every single one of the people you're talking to. Let me tell you, a large portion of my tech staff stumbled hard on this. Some didn't make it and that's a problem. So I thought," Let's get the really smart people here who know what the hell they're talking about and tell me what I did wrong and what you, my friends, should be doing if you're in the middle of this transition or you're starting a job with a company who's all outbound or you're outbound, but you're having perhaps less success than you desire., With that, let me introduce you to my good friend, Mark Ebert. Mark is from 6sense. 6sense is, as they call themselves, an account engagement platform, which I found interesting as a marketer. They're not an account- based marketing platform, they're an account engagement platform. So it's interesting that an account engagement platform is talking to a sales engagement platform. Mark and I, were just going to engage. Mark, welcome to the show, my friend.

Mark Ebert: Darryl, Thanks for having me. I like the way he said that, engaging.

Darryl Praill: It is engaging. It is totally engaging.

Mark Ebert: You got it.

Darryl Praill: All right. So I shared with you my story. You were eavesdropping on it, I'm sure. I've got to ask you point blank, the transition from inbound to outbound, is it just me? Am I slow? Why is this so hard?

Mark Ebert: You got it. It's hard. We talk about this a lot. The one thing that comes to mind first on why it's so hard is because the B2B buyer is certainly in the driver's seat. When you're an inbound shop, the seller's in the buyer seat because they're coming in to you and you can dictate what happens. You can dictate what you talk about, whether or not you want to engage that person or somebody else. When you're transitioning to an outbound motion, you're realizing that you've lost all control of the process and you're trying to grab on to it. The buyers are well- educated and they don't want to be educated by sellers. They want to stay anonymous. They don't want to submit the form. They don't want to engage in sales and they want to push you to the end of the process and that's why it's so hard and it's a very real challenge I think most outbound teams face.

Darryl Praill: So does that mean I change how I approach selling if I'm used to an inbound model, or this is a combination that the buyer, because whether you're inbound or outbound, if I had known my ideal customer profile, I could posit they probably have shared similar pains because they fit the mold, they fit the profile that we've done our research on? Therefore, is it me, I need to change how I approach it or is it truly, you mentioned the buyer's in control, which I love that. Is the buyer different? So is it just a control thing or are they physically different in how they think and approach it because to your point on inbound, they are seeking possibly your help? They've already crossed that mental hurdle. Where in outbound, you're the one disrupting their day and saying," I want to intrude and talk to you about my product."

Mark Ebert: Yeah. Right. Exactly. If we're in the seller's seat, hopefully, step one is you really understand the problem you're solving for your customer base and that's crystal clear in your head. That would be, obviously, a foundational thing you got to know, but I think to take it to the next level, to start figuring out how you successfully go open opportunities on an outbound motion, it's understanding all of the assumptions that your buyer has about how to solve that problem, that would lead them in a different direction and reframing the right way to go tackle that problem that would get them to engage with you. So I think at 6sense, we just talk a lot about with outbound, you've got to develop a perspective that is thoughtful, understanding that they're thinking about how they got to go solve their problem and they don't want to talk to you about it. But we need to be game planning and understanding," Well, what's our perspective on probably where they're headed and why and then if I need to change that course of direction, what is it that we need to get in front of them to help get us into a conversation?" So we talk a lot about really playing that movie out," Hey, if they don't hear from me and we play this movie out, where are they heading to solve that issue? Do they even know that they have that issue? Then if they hear from me, and we have a new perspective on how to solve that and we can hook them with an opportunity to have an engaging conversation to help them, you're going to be a heck of a lot more successful when you're doing your outreach.

Darryl Praill: You just said something there. I've about this before in passing, but it's always part of a bigger conversation and it sometimes gets lost. I want to stop here because you've already hit on something that's huge. I've experienced this exact same challenge with every single one of my reps. None of them are immune to this, so boys and girls, listen up for a second, okay? I'm going back in time and I'm going to rewind inaudible" Know your product." You said that, remember that? All right. So I bet you every single one of your product or your service rep now, right? You're like," Yep. I can demo like there's no tomorrow. I can lick off facts and features about our capabilities better than any sales engineer. I am a stud muffin rockstar."" Okay, great. You know your product." On a couple of points you said," Know the assumptions your buyer has about their problems." So stop it," Know the assumptions the buyer has about their problems." So they recognize they have a problem, but they may assume it was caused by symptom A or symptom B and you may be approaching it from symptom C, that's one example, or they may be assuming it's a personnel issue, not a process or a technology issue, or they may be assuming it's a funding issue or a combination thereof. They may be assuming it's an external issue. This is the thing you can't go in assuming that what you think is the same as they're thinking. The keyword that Mark said there was assumptions. Then he went on, he said," Outbound requires a thoughtful understanding and perspective about the issue versus your product." That's a really sophisticated way of saying," You got to think about how your product helps solve their problem. You can't just say, My product has feature A, B and C," and assume that they're going to connect the dots." Oh, feature B might solve my problem X." You can't even talk about feature B. That feature B is a conversation two or three calls down the road. Right now, we're just, let's talk about X. Help me understand better about X and why? Why do you think that's a problem? So discovery plays a really big deal to do that and where is the buyer heading to solve an issue if they don't hear from you as a sales rep? So they're going to head somewhere and they may be fixated. They may have already said," This is the solution. I'm going down that road," and you've got to go and open them up. All of this points to the one thing that I was alluding to is the biggest challenge I see reps screw up on, with all love and respect, kids, is that you don't understand your buyer. For example, talk to me about Mark right now. He's the senior VP of sales at a hi- tech company that's rolling high. They've raised some good funding. They've got valuations. They're on a trajectory. I would assume with him it's all about scale and resources and opportunity. I see he's got some competitors in this space. I assume there's either some competitive back and forth there and he and I have never met before today's conversation, so if I'm hitting any raw buttons here, Mark, just it's luck. There could be an M& A strategy that they're looking to fill some holes because time is money, all this kind of stuff, so plus what comes out in his role, senior VP of sales, not just a VP, senior VP, So he sits on the executive committee, probably. He may report to the CEO. I'm guessing this. I have not looked this up, because he's not a VP-

Mark Ebert: I do.

Darryl Praill: ...he's a senior VP. There we go. So that means he's probably looking at process issues across the organization, not just sales. He has as much, probably, influence and vested interest in how marketing is performing versus how customer success is performing. At that round table, he can voice those concerns. He's probably a trusted advisor by his peers. He's probably got issues of sales rep. He may have issues around," How do I ensure I have diversity? How do I have culture?" These are all the symptoms, I'm guessing, that he, himself, has to deal with. He probably doesn't do a lot of the analysis. He probably has people come to him and say," These are the analysis we've come up with; therefore, what are you going to do about it?" In other words, everything I'm doing to get and who is my buyer, if Mark was my prospective buyer, as in this case, has nothing to do the VanillaSoft. I just said," Who the hell is this guy, and what are they living with every day, and what are the pains he is having? So if he's got a pain around hiring and scaling, he's got a pain about being accountable to the CEO. We know he's got investors, so they probably have expectations too. Maybe he needs to increase his conversion rate. Maybe he needs more lead flow. Maybe he's not finding enough sales reps fast enough. Maybe he needs to go into new markets. How do all of these situations apply to my product and how I can help him solve those problems? That's the assumptions he's talking about. Mark, how'd I do?

Mark Ebert: You got it. It's a good deep dive into, you just did that in 30, 60 seconds, so it's not that as a seller you need to spend days thinking about this, right? If you know your personas you sell to, you should probably be able to have that mental download real quick of," What do I think that they're struggling with?" pretty quickly, like you did in 30 seconds. If they don't know anything about what I have to sell, where are they probably headed to go solve those things? At 6sense, we talk a lot about, we help companies build pipeline, just like you guys do, right?

Darryl Praill: Yep.

Mark Ebert: I hear from a lot of our newer reps," Well, if they're growing really fast, they don't have a pipeline problem," and I say," Stop right there. That's not-

Darryl Praill: Sorry.

Mark Ebert: ...the case at all." You could be a rocket ship tripling in size every year that the problem just shifts. So it's not like," Can we sell it?" It's," My target to the board, just tripled and do you have pipeline to support tripling of your number?" When you can jump into the head of sales' mind and recognize, you're probably already thinking," How am I going to triple pipeline and where am I going to get it?" Well, I can hire a lot more people. I could invest in enablement. I can invest in technology. Have you considered how at VanillaSoft at 6sense, what is the thing that they hear from us and then it stops them in their thought process around, that is an approach I probably need to sit and learn about. It sounds like they've got something to share with me that would describe an approach to solving this. I don't know yet, or I'm interested, given what they do for other similar companies and get them to stop, right? Wen we think of outbound motions, it's getting them to stop wherever they are in their buyer's journey. They might know anything. They might be hot down the path and we got to get on the phone with them, but we often blow that first call because we don't sit and have that conversation. We jump right to," What does our product actually do?" I think one of the biggest challenges with the transitioning to outbound, without question, it's hard.

Darryl Praill: So that's the thing. Let's recap. What's your quick takeaway, kids? It's simple. When you're doing outbound, there's a good chance you're interrupting them. They're not seeking you out necessarily, so you need to understand who your target persona, I'm going to be coming back to that word a minute, your target persona, what are their daily routine? What are they living in, in their challenges? All right? So the whole thing of," Hi, Mark. I'm Darryl Praill with VanillaSoft. We're a sales engagement platform. People who use us typically see a tripling of revenue, speed to lead and shorter sales cycles. Can I show you?" I just talked about me.

Mark Ebert: Right.

Darryl Praill: I'm hoping that he goes," Oh, tripling in revenue? Well, the board is on me to triple revenue. Maybe he'll connect those dots." But chances are, he's going to go." Yeah, go away. I've already figured that out." Whereas, if I would have said," Hey, Mark, struggling with high expectations from your investors? I might have a solution to help you achieve some of those unattainable goals." I'm not saying that's the right line, but you see how that message changed. So all of a sudden he's like," Oh my, that's personal. That's personal to me," right? So do you understand the life, not your product, not your features, the life your target persona is living? I challenge you right now, hit pause. Hit pause. Rhyme it off. I'll wait for you. Okay, I'm not really going to wait for you because I'm assuming you hit pause and away we go, but you get the idea. If you couldn't rhyme it off, like I did with Mark about Mark, then that's your first step. Next step, you talked about personas, not personas. Mark is a persona, as an SVP of sales in my ideal customer profile. What I just spewed off is related to his persona, but he said, personas. Mark, personas reminds us that when you're doing outbound, but they're specifically outbound, because like you said, they haven't come to you. You're going to them. There are buying committees. It could be the SVP of sales; it could be a CFO; it could be an internal user champion. In other words, current stats are anywhere between five and 10 people involved in a buying committee, which means you need to know five and 10 personas. So the biggest challenge I had when we went to outbound, especially ABM, was training my reps that they needed to understand, not just the AICP of the target marketplace and target customer, but the personas of each people involved in their buying committee. They then needed to research who the hell these people were and then they needed to reach out and talk to them, which most reps refuse because if I go from talking to one person, the sales cycle might be a month. If I'm talking to five to 10 people, that's going to be a three to six month deal, I want to avoid lengthening my sales cycle. That's dumb. So how do we convince sales reps that they need to understand buying committees? They can't just sell to one person.

Mark Ebert: That's exactly right, accounts buy, and that's why account- based marketing that the whole ABM approach strikes a chord with so many companies. There are committees, and I'll just throw a quick tip I think everyone could implement, assuming you're working in a CRM that allows you to build a dashboard or a report, and that is just instead of measuring how many accounts you're reaching every day or you've reached out to, focus on how many contacts within the account you've reached. When we stood that dashboard up, we have a dashboard that we look at that says," Hey, out of your territory, what accounts haven't heard from you in the last 30 days?" Then we have another one that says," Hey, inside your territory, on average, how many contacts are we reaching out to?" We know we have eight personas that we could sell to get an opportunity started. But if you look, it makes me smile because I sold for too many years too, you'll go back and look and it's like I reach out to the same person over and over and over again, hoping for something masterful to happen. So we encourage people to hold yourself accountable too. You've got many opportunities to strike a chord if you can, and it's the upfront homework of falling in love with the problem you're solving for each of those personas, getting them to stop in their tracks to say," I think you have something valuable for me," for a first meeting and then track and monitor," How well are we covering that buying committee?" You're going to have a much higher opportunity open rate.

Darryl Praill: Let me use an example here that all of you can relate to. I'm positive on this and you're going to understand just how smart Mark is. Let's make this about you for a second, you, the sales rep. Let's say you've got a deal on the line and they want to know," Can your product do X?" You go," Geez, I don't know." I think we've all been there." I'm not sure if we can do X or not." Can we do X?" So what do you do? Let me guess, this is how that goes. If you can relate to this, put your hand up. You call up your buddy, the other sales rep, and you say," Buddy, can we do X?" They say," I don't know. Let me call a couple of other buddies," I don't know."" I don't know." None of the reps know. All right. So now you start what I like to call,'dialing for yes.' So now you pick up the phone or you use Slack or Teams and you reach out to a sales engineer," Can we do X?""Well, I think we can do X, but I'm not really sure. I haven't been asked that in a while. I have to look into that."" I need an answer now. Can we do X?"" I don't know."" All right." So now you go to product management," Can we do X?"" I don't know if we can do X." So then you go to the developer, your buddy, the developer in the back room you send a beer to once in a while," Can we do X?"" Yeah, we can do X. Let me show you." Now, all of a sudden, you go," Great, Mr. Customer. We can do X." You went dialing for a yes and guess what you just did? You talked to a whole bunch of different personas in your organization to try to get buying so you can succeed. Okay? Flip it fricking around. It's the exact same way when you're targeting your prospect. You want to talk to that economic buyer. You want to talk to that executive sponsor. You want to talk to that user. You want to talk to that champion because some will be more receptive to your message than others and then they will advocate on your behalf and here's what you're not understanding. When you have multiple people advocating your behalf, especially across multiple roles or departments, the deal size goes up. It goes up. This is not about getting a deal done in a hurry, this is about increasing a revenue size, a deal size, which increases your commission, which gets you even that much closer to your quota. So if your quota, I'm making this up, is a million dollars and your average deal size is 50,000, you have to do 20 deals. But what if you get your average deal size up to 100,000, now you only have to do 10 deals, less than one a month and all it took was getting a buying committee involved? That's why you need to do that. You're smiling, Mark. I'm saying stuff. It's resonating. Yes? No?

Mark Ebert: You got it. Darryl, I'll add one other thing that we, especially at 6sense, we spend a lot of time focusing on. We talk about it in our messaging and everything, so we talked earlier about," Hey, understand the different approach. You can make an assumption of where they're at, understand how you can provide a different way of solving for that problem." But the third thing is understanding that everyone's at a different point in their, what we call'the buyer's journey.' We often assume they're all in the same place, right? Then our messaging makes an assumption that they recognize they have a problem. When many companies that are in your territory, are on your list, they're not even there yet. They're totally under a rock, as our CMO, Latanae, says. We got to do a good job of understanding," Are they under a rock? They've recognized a problem. They're in the middle of seeking out a solution. They just haven't talked to you yet. Are they about ready to buy?" We're getting in at the very end and the approach you take has to be totally different and your messaging has to be totally different based on where they are in their buyer's journey. That's the business we're in. We help them understand where they are, but even if you don't know where they are, your first mission is to understand where are they, so that you're speaking to them as though you're not ahead of them and I think that's a big mistake we make a lot. We assume that they already know, that they've got X problem or that they're looking into solutions, but they might not, so you might as well ask them. That whole concept of," Do I know where they are in their buyer's journey?" takes homework, takes time, but it also means we got to message differently depending on where they are.

Darryl Praill: So again, Mark said earlier," Stop making assumptions." Don't assume where they are in their buyer's journey. Just like you don't assume that what you think their problem is is what the problem is. Just like, don't assume that there's only one person involved selling it to you. I love that point about understanding that every single prospect of yours is going to be in a different spot in the journey, so you have to adapt to them. All right. It's not about them adapting to you, which, to me, reps make that mistake. This all manifested itself for me when we started rolling out ABM. So let's end it on that, Mark. Talk to me, the whole conversation toady was about inbound versus outbound. How does ABM play into us do better at outbound?

Mark Ebert: Sure. Well, I think it starts with sales leadership and the marketing team understanding when we... actually, I'll go back. One misperception is that ABM is only a certain set of accounts and when we talk about ABM, we say," Oh, that's an ABM account and that's not." We hear that all the time and we cringe. When we think of ABM, we talk about our entire addressable market and running plays that's going to move them down the funnel based on where they are in their journey, like we had talked about earlier. So back to what I was saying a minute ago, it starts with having a coordinated effort between the sellers up to the management and the marketing team, understanding," Hey, if they're at this point in the journey, what is our messaging? Marketing? How are you helping? Sales, how are we messaging to go open opportunity? If they're here, how does that messaging change?" If you're a rep on this podcast, one of my recommendations, if you hear your company talking about ABM, it's your responsibility to speak up and make sure you're having that conversation around," Well, we have our addressable market. We have our territories, and if we're going to go open as much pipeline as we can inside those territories, what are all the things that we need to be doing to be reaching those different people inside that buying committee? Can I pressure test that those messages are accurate, so that we're being relevant along the way?" So I'll pause there, but that first piece being that it's a coordinated effort between the marketing and the sales leadership and sales reps, ABM isn't just a set of accounts; it's your entire addressable market. The whole idea is we got to get everyone into the funnel in some way or another and therefore, we got to work on our outreach in all the channels that we can reach those buyers, making sure we're meeting them with where they're at and getting them into conversations with us. That's how we think in a minute about ABM when it comes to building an outbound strategy.

Darryl Praill: What I love about ABM, in a nutshell, and you kind of heard it this whole conversation, is it's a very intentional, coordinated, pursuit of your ideal customer profiles and it spans both marketing and sales. It's not just marketing, sales reps thinking you're stupid." Log in. You're stupid." Sales reps thinking you're the one who actually makes it all happen and marketing's just out there doing paper click ads.

Mark Ebert: Right.

Darryl Praill: You're wrong. I cannot emphasize that enough. More than anything in the world, it is something that genuinely creates a lot of alignment on the revenue organization. That's how I view it. Yeah, they're sales and marketing, but they're the revenue team-

Mark Ebert: Sure.

Darryl Praill: ...and that's the beauty of it. So if you're in the middle of an ABM transition or you've started a job just doing ABM and you've never done that before. There's going to be a few bumps in the road. If you're managing from inbound to outbound, maybe you haven't done ABM yet, but you're recognizing the need just to go to outbound. Well, you know what? Learn from ABM. Learn from vendors like 6sense and others on all their advice and all their wisdom. Consume other content. I would strongly suggest you advocate to bring in a formal ABM vendor provider, because it provides not only the tools, but a framework to make sure you do it right, which gives you that consistency. But regardless, we've covered some amazing stuff here today. We talked about inbound and outbound. It's hard. I understand it. The buyer's changing on the outbound side, they're in control; whereas, in the inbound brand, maybe you're more in control. You can't just know your product, you have to actually know the assumptions that the buyer has about their own problem. You need to know that life that the buyer is living. You need to disrupt their thinking sometimes and offer an alternative approach. Sometimes, your target buyer persona won't be receptive to you, but there's a buying committee involved. So if you can't go in one door, you can go in another door, or another door, or another door. It is worth your time to do a buying committee, because it does increase both advocacy for your solution versus something they might have had dreamed up on their own or a competitive offering. It also typically increases the deal size and the number of seats being deployed. Hey, who doesn't want more commission checks on that front? How you differentiate yourself from how their thinking is, is really critical, so you better be able to differentiate yourself. Then you need to help them understand what life would be like without you. All right. That sounds stupid, but you really need to do that. So that's it. I wanted to hit up inbound versus outbound. I'll talk a little bit about ABM. It's something I continue to live to this day. Almost every Friday morning, actually, at 8: 00 AM Eastern, I spend an hour with Latane Conant who's the CMO at 6sense. So I've heard it from her point of view, now I'm hanging out with Mark from his point of view. So there you go. Just to make it even more interesting, because you're all thinking," Ah, yeah. You're probably a 6sense advocate." I'm actually not a 6sense client. So why does that matter? It matters because I'm trying to teach you something here about inbound versus outbound and about the power of ABM. Now, does that mean I may not be a 6sense client in the future? Well, now that I know the senior VP is-

Mark Ebert: That's our job-

Darryl Praill: ...saying we can strike a good deal. So there you have it. With that said, check out Mark. Follow him on LinkedIn. Its simple. It's the classic linkedin. com/ in/markebert. That's Mark with a K, not a C, as my cousin, Narc, likes to say," C stands for cute and cuddly." I don't know what K stands for in this case, Ebert, E- B- E- R- T. Check him out. Follow him. He's awesome. Mark. Thank you for your time today. In the meantime, we've gone way overboard, but it was worth it because this was a great conversation. I look forward to talking to you all next week. In the meantime, have you checked out the new podcast, 0 to 5 Million? The place to go for entrepreneurs trying to grow and scale hosted by Shawn Finder, Ollie Whitfield. Check it out online. We think you'll like it. My name is Darryl Praill and this, my friends, is another episode of The INSIDE Inside Sales Show. Take care.