Building a Productive Sales Development Framework

Darryl: Do you know what's so exciting about this show folks, honestly? And I don't mean this show as in, The INSIDE Inside Sales show, as we all know, you got to say it that way, even today's guest. I've got this world totally conditioned out to say that way. My guest who is waiting in the greenroom, before we went on live, he said it exactly that way and I was so proud of him. He's such a good boy. No, what's so exciting about today's show is and if you're just listening to the audio this will mean nothing to you. Well, it might. We'll wait and see, is I'm back in my actual real studio. That's right. My real studio, if you're watching video, behind me is the much, much valued, much loved, much commented upon red curtain. This is where you insert that question about adult music. All right? There is no casting couch behind me. We took it out of the room. But the good news is, if you're listening to it, you're not watching the video, you're like Praill I don't care about your damn red curtain, I'm on my much better microphone. So this is just hopefully, if maybe you're driving down your car and you got the Surround Sound going on, the Bose speakers and hopefully this is just filling up your space. And maybe your life partner is beside you in the passenger seat. And she's like who the hell is this obnoxious dude, and why do you listen to him? If that's what's going on right now in your life, this is good. If you're listening on maybe you got the Apple headphones, right? With a spatial audio, I'm going to get Dan the producer to mix this up so it sounds like everything I'm coming from is different speakers. How would you think of that idea, right? Just to really, really mess with you. So it's great to be back in the studio. And I'm actually really genuinely heartfelt, not just pretend, excited about today's conversation and guest. And I want to set the stage why. So as you all know, I took on the CRO role, I can't even say that I haven't even been drinking yet. Chief revenue officer, let's go with that, about a year ago. And at the time, it created some waves in the industry because I was the chief marketing officer who to become a chief revenue officer. And that's just something that's unheard of, apparently. And that's wrong, by the way, we should fix that. So but before I took on the role, before I took on the role, before I said yes. And I've shared this before, I reached out to a number of people. And I said, should I do this? What advice can you give me? These are all people who you know, and love in the industry, whom you go to. People who I similarly respect and I got lot of positive feedback. So I took the role with that foundation. And then, as I spent the next 30 days doing a complete and very thorough exhausting, is the hardest 30 days of my life to this date and time are audit of the operations, I started to realize some of the changes that needed to be done. And I went back to those same people and a few others and I said, help me understand. Talk to me about culture. Talk to me about hiring. Talk to me about engaging my sales folks. Talk to me about so many parameters, because I started to realize that while we were doing very well before I took on the job, and the reason I got the job is because there were certain ambitious goals we really wanted to achieve. And in my audit, I confirmed many of my suspicions which there were some shortcomings. Perhaps we hadn't hired the right people, perhaps we didn't train them correctly, perhaps we didn't inspire them and motivate them correctly. Perhaps because of the culture of the people that we hired are less than optimal results were a byproduct. In other words, we got what we deserved, because that's what we hired. And I needed to change the hiring and the training and development, keyword, development of the reps. Now one day, if you're not in this role right now, if you're not a sales leader, you're a sales bag carrying rep, you can appreciate this from your own personal point of view, how you feel valued, how you feel developed, how you feel like you're being grown or not. We leaders understand when you do not feel that way. We can see it in your results. And of course, that's why we have an 18- month shelf life and then we get our asses fired. If you're a leader listening to this, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Too many leaders fall back and saying, we'll hit our numbers, we just do our activity. You got to do just 60 calls a day, just 60 calls a day bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, or 80 or 100, you do that, we'll be fine. But of course, they're not, because they're just dealing with the symptom and not the actual problem that's causing the team to underperform. And so, I spent so much time trying to figure this out and talk to so many people. And then fast forward, half a year when I'm already in the job. And what happens is, freaking David Dulany and Kyle Vamvouris, come up with this book called The Sales Development Framework, where the hell was he when I took over the job? That's what I want to know. Because everything in this damn book speaks to everything I learned the hard way and having to have a lot of conversations and it cost me a lot of money and favors out and beers consumed. But it's all right here now. So here's the beauty. I read the book, right? And this thing is amazing. And as I read it over and over again, all I kept saying to myself was yeah, and I got to share this with the team. And I was thinking to myself, the funny part was because, David and Kyle are talking not just to... The first audience is the leaders. But if you're a bag carrying rep reading this, you start to understand what your obligation is, too. You start to understand why your bosses are doing some of the things they're doing. And if you aspire for a long term career in sales, which means management one day, you need to read this book now. And then you need to ask your boss, why are you doing this? Why are you not doing this? Because you know, what? Dulany and Vamvouris on page 130 said, your personal brand is important. But you're not equipping me to do my personal brand, for example. So I got to get Dulany on the show because obviously, Vamvouris wasn't available, he would have been my preferred choice. He's way better even though his name is second on the list. And that's what I did. Mr. Dulany, welcome to the show, my friend.

David Dulany: Wow. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. I'm so excited to dive in on this, Darryl. I appreciate it.

Darryl: You're scared as shit, aren't you? You have no idea what I'm going to ask you right now, right?

David Dulany: I'm a little scared. That's a big intro. But I'm hoping that every sales rep in the United States is reading this and has their finger on the Amazon button. So let's dive in.

Darryl: Why didn't you release this July 1 in 2020, dude? That would have been much better for me, that's my first bitch. Hey, listen, I want to say something. In the book, on the opening page of the acknowledgments page up front, you gave me a shout out, Darryl, Uncle D. Praill. And brother, I am honored to be in your rarefied air. So let's just go into this right away. I would bounce around here, folks. Okay, because there's so much good stuff on this book. I mean, David, before we start, help me set the stage. You give me the gist of the book. And what was your motivation for writing The Sales Development Framework: How to Build and Scale a Highly Productive Sales Development Program. Talk to me.

David Dulany: Yeah. It's funny, it took forever to do. And so it's my bad. So I owe you a beer.

Darryl: Yeah, you owe me dude.

David Dulany: And it really was linking up with Kyle that finally kicked it into gear. So long story short, I had been running sales development programs for several years. And then we started working with sales development, managers and executives here at Tenbound on the advisory side of the business. And there's just patterns, if you're in something for so long, you'd have to be really blind to not to start to see the same things over and over again. Got those down, put those into our sales development manager training, which we offer as a zoom or online as a self paced, and then took the sections of the training and just essentially those are the chapters of the book. And we can dive in on that. But it's just stuff that I just saw over the years, and you'd have to be completely crazy not to start to see those patterns.

Darryl: All right. Now, you folks have heard me say many times recently, I was at the OutBound Conference recently, but I was just watching an encore presentation of my own keynote yesterday. And I don't watch myself often for obvious reasons, because I'm my own worst critic. And I liked what I saw. So if you haven't had a chance to check it out yet, you should do that. But one of the things I shared with everybody and I stand by this, is that the OutBound Conference is what I would say to you, I always say it's the best sales event for sales reps. It's a show by sales reps for sales reps. Now, that's what I've always said, and I stand by that. But if you have been listening me for a while, I want to remind you what I've also said. I said Tenbound and their events, is the best sales show for sales development, which is very different than sales reps, all right? And there's going to be some overlap. But if you want to develop and grow and build a team, and understand all the machinations and issues and challenges that go with that, whether you're a leader or a sales rep, you got to check out Tenbound, those are my two, one A, one B shows in the space. And I've been to a lot. Different focus, different areas. But so if you haven't done Tenbound yet, please do Tenbound and I say that not because it's a plug, but because I genuinely am sharing that with you. All right, I'm just going to bop around here. You start off page nine, sales development, self assessment, and you've got how many? You've got 14 questions here and you ask us to rate our effectiveness for each item with a yes or no. So I'm just going to go through a couple to tease people. Okay?

David Dulany: Okay.

Darryl: Number one, so this is for sales leaders, you should be listening and sales reps, you should say, I wonder if my sales leaders even thought of that. I have articulated the sales development team culture, yes or no? I have shared our culture statement with our team and received their buying, yes or no? My leadership style, hiring practices and coaching techniques are imbued, good word, are imbued with our cultural values, yes or no? In my leadership style, I build upon our team with encouragement, frequent coaching and positive attitude. Yes or no? The team sees me working alongside them, demonstrating the behavior I wish them to emulate. Yes or no? It goes on. It goes on. And then you come up with... And I would say this was the killer. How often did you answer yes? 10 to 14 times, hey, you're looking great. Three to nine times. I love how you put this, you need to dig into all of the chapters that follow. Zero to three times. Okay, this is not what you say, but this is what you meant. You're a dumb ass and why are you in leadership? Okay, so where did this assessment come from? Because it's really well done.

David Dulany: Thank you. So we're leading the witness a little bit. So it's essentially the chapters are laid out in a sequential pattern. So if you're running a team that is doing great, but there could be some things wrong, or you're completely starting from scratch, and you need to start a team, you can start at the beginning and go right through. So each of the questions teases out how far along are you in the various parts of the book. And so if you come up with a zero, I would say, give us a call we can help you out or buy the book.

Darryl: Only the zero, otherwise you're fine.

David Dulany: Yeah, I mean, any part of that continuum, but it's not like to hold you Nina, Nina, Nina type of thing. But it's to give you some things that everybody needs to work on. I mean, this is new, I mean, sales development as we define it, it goes way back to telemarketing and things like that. But the way that we're doing it now in the tech industry, and all the different acronyms and everything is relatively new. So hey, I mean, nobody's an expert in this yet.

Darryl: One of the things that sales reps forget is that often for your sales leadership, and you're frustrated with them, this is often their first time doing it. So that's why you should buy them this book and just leave it on their desk. I want to jump ahead, page 48. Well, it's actually probably before 48, but you start talking about... It's all about hiring in this process, right? And looking at types of people, hiring strategies, developing the ideal candidate profile. But page 48, you get into recruiting steps and you got seven steps, the pre- screening process, the pre- screening assessment, the phone- screening process, live exercise roleplay, live interviews, internal discussions and offer. I couldn't find this anywhere. And I'm hiring a boatload of people. I could not find this anywhere. I'm not making this up. I went to my recruiter, and I said, all right, so this is what I want. This is my ideal candidate profile exactly as you said, thank you very much. It's in the book. And they said, thank you very much, Mr. Praill, most people don't have this book with them. You're a rock star. And I said, well, Dulany, I mean, Vamvouris not Dulany. And I said, okay, great. So you're going send me candidates? And they're like, yeah. And they're going to be screened and everything because you know what I want, you got the profile. They're like, yeah. And I said, great. So I don't want to eff this up when you give me that, what do I do? And there was silence. And I asked this of multiple recruiters, and they're like, well, you don't need anything. You do your thing. And I'm like, well, what's the thing? Because you're the professional. Here's the thing, recruiters, if you're listening, if you're a recruiter listen up, most of you give a guarantee, if they leave within three months or six months, we'll backfill them for you. And for a few shekels more, we'll give you a full one year warranty, that's right, sign here. And I'm like, so if they suck, you're going to be at a pocket so it's in your best interest to make sure I don't mess up this handoff. So tell me how to do it. Tell me what works. Because candidly, this is what drives culture. That's what I learned a long time ago, the culture you get is the culture you hire. And people don't understand that. And you went through and you actually outlined the whole thing. So we need to look at the whole, these seven steps. For example, here we go. Here are three STR trees that you can quickly find within a resume. And these are brilliant. So reps listening to the show, does your resume, I'm going to use a Dulany word, is it imbued with these three elements? Okay? One, have they ever sold anything? Two, have they ever done something on their own initiative without being told? Three, and when I saw this, I was like, boom, that's it, mic drop. Number three, do they have a growth mindset? I got to tell you, that's the first thing I look for in every single resume. Do you have a growth mindset, is it jumping off the page for me? And every single rep that I've hired, is actively investing in Tenbound, or in a Patreon group with insert notable trainer here or can quote Jeb Blount, or somebody else, and they speak to how they're developing this out, they have a growth mindset, they're committed to their game. And the ones who don't work out, have no idea who Dulany is, or who Jeb Blount is, or they can't even spell growth mindset. So you got one. But I love the whole idea of the live exercise roleplay and the live interviews. So talk to me about the recruiting steps, what was the catalyst there? And what's the reaction been on this particular part since you published?

David Dulany: Yeah, and so just taking a step back, we start with the culture. And the culture statement and establishing that. And that's the first thing that most people just whizzed through, right? Because it's like, what is that? It's so squishy, dashy dashy type of thing. But it's really, really important, as you mentioned, to take a step back and really establish what is the type of culture and what is the type of team that we want to put out into the market to represent us. And you've got to at least have some version one written down on a piece of paper that this is what we want the culture to be for the team, because that's the foundation. Then you can get into the ideal candidate statement that would imbue the quotes with the right people, and then you can start to recruit for those people. So step number one, get that ideal vision of what the team is in your head, and then go and start to do the recruiting. And then, yeah, we'll give you some steps in there that can help you to find those people. The other quick thing, Darryl, is that people don't put enough emphasis on recruiting, especially in a leadership role. Recruiting is the really, I don't know if it's the most important but getting the right people on your team is so incredibly critical to your success as a leader, that you can't rush through it. And especially in the SDR world, it's let's get some butts in the seats and hook them up with VanillaSoft and get them some data and off to the races. That's what we see all the time. And it's just a recipe for low performance. And not the VanillaSoft part, but the people part.

Darryl: No, no, no, actually, even I will be an asshole today to admit that maybe the VanillaSoft house isn't as perfectly in order as it should be sometimes. And that's why culture is so important. We started looking at some of the cultural profile, the ideal candidate profile, and we looked at attributes, right? And this is the starting point. And what we gained consensus on was these are just a few, that we were looking for, intentionally looking for. That they were curious. That they were competitive, that they were committed to their craft, that they were coachable. All right? So you started seeing those, we get some Cs going on there, right? And then I laughed because in your heart, that same page, page 149, you have a whole section on coachability and how to tell if someone is coachable. I can't tell you how... If you get someone who's not coachable, you can invest all you want to in them. So they're coming to you with a big ass salary and then they want another big ass commission and I don't begrudge you reps for wanting that. But me as the boss, I have to watch my budget. So it's a balancing act, and you'd understand that, because I need to make money at the company. And so you impact the cost of sale. Pretty simple math. And so I'm committed to coaching you, but if you're not coachable, I'm going to waste six months, nine months, 12 months, before I finally pull the chute and say, you're not a good fit for this company, because you're not coachable. And that's why your numbers aren't hitting where they should be. All right? But if you're coachable, then that's a whole different kettle of fish. And I really, really, really, really, really like that. So that was impressive that you did that. I loved it. So anyway, my point is, here's a question, on the coachability, folks, here's what he actually says. So if you're listening, how would you answer this to your boss? To tell someone's coachable, ask about a time when they were struggling and received advice, then put it into practice and improve. Do they have a few ready answers? Ask what it was they did to improve when they did struggle? Did they seek guidance, and then follow the given suggestions. During the interview, ask them to perform an action, then give them some advice about that action and have them do it again. Did they implement your suggestion on the second try? That's awesome. That's awesome. And by the way, when I get to the point of doing reference checks on you, I'm going to ask about this. I'm going to drill down on that just so you know. I don't want you to be shocked.

David Dulany: It's huge. I mean, there's nothing worse than working especially in the SDR world, than someone who knows everything already, right? And they sit down, and they've got their whole prospect in plan as bulletproof, and they know exactly what to say to the prospects, and they're doing everything right. And you with 20 years of experience can't really add any value. And I mean, this is a hypothetical, but I see this all the time and it's someone who just graduated from college six months ago, has all the answers figured out, but then if you dig into the data, they're really struggling, and they need some help and you're there to support them. There's nothing worse than having them come back to you and be like, I've got this all figured out, I've got this handled, I know exactly what to do. Leave me alone. And you really want the opposite of that type of attitude on the team.

Darryl: That's the biggest thing. I'm trying to create part of my culture out to the people, but it's also the methodology in how we sell, right? So you might have had success selling this way before, maybe a used car sales rep. And that had a certain style. But that used car sales rep approach may not work in say in a high tech SAS environment, just different buyers, different processes. I need to coach you on how to adapt your style to this type of selling because you represent my brand right now and my experience, and the whole customer experience. And if you won't adapt, then I don't want you representing my brand, no matter how nice you are, etc. So that's a big one. And your takeaways in this chapter were great. Decide on your high level hiring strategy, which most leaders don't do, honestly. Refine your own personal brand as a leader. I'll get to that one my friend. Stick to an interview process and take chances and never be afraid to bet on a person with drive. And that's a big one. Drive. I talked about commitment, commitment to the craft, commitment to success, that's also where competitive comes in. If you're competitive, then that's going to help you have more drive because you want to succeed, you want to be number one, or at least in the top three, since we're in the spirit of the Olympics right now. Refine your own personal brand as a leader, that was one of your takeaways. And I want to jump ahead, and I'm bopping around here on page, was it 129 or something? 13O? 130. Man, this is for the rep, you talk about managing your external reputation sometimes called a personal brand. And external reputation is how you are perceived. And person, there are two components to building a strong external reputations, personal branding and content creation. All right, so talk to me about this. This is sales development framework. And I find in all honestly, that most leaders and most reps have no clue about personal branding, if you even bring it up, they'll say, oh, that's just bullshit. That's just marketing. That's not how people buy, they buy from me because I me. I built a person rapport, I'm too busy. I'm too busy, I don't want to do it. And I contend that's absolutely the exact opposite of how people buy. They're looking for reasons to not trust you as a personal brand and overcome that. You hit this up in this book, and I love the fact that you actually went to the leaders and I said, what's your leadership brand? So talk to me about the importance of brand. What can you teach our audience today?

David Dulany: Yeah, it's huge. I mean, and especially in the SDR world, because as a sales leader, as a VP of sales, you can bring your top reps with you, they usually bring five or six of their top sales reps with them as they go from company to company and they can instantly have a awesome sales team, but we can't do that in the SDR world. It literally you're starting from zero every 12 to 18 months as people are getting promoted, and they're moving on to different positions within the company. So we can't bring the top SDR as we go from company to company, they're off doing something else. So your personal brand as sales development leader becomes even more important, and you have to think about it. And what we see out there is, you're so busy, you're working 50 hours a week, 60 hours a week on your internal company, you're managing down to the team. You're managing up to your boss, who's got time to think about writing a blog post or being on a webinar, doing things like that? But you really do have to think about it, because that's the way that people learn about you. And so if they go to your LinkedIn profile, and there's no posts, there's no information, there's no picture, sometimes, you're cutting yourself off from opportunities that may present themselves for your career. So it's just something really important to think about.

Darryl: There's multiple things here that I'm looking at, and we're running out of time, guys. So candidly, you need to go by the book, because we're just out of time. Or you need to follow Dulany right now on LinkedIn. Or maybe Kyle Vamvouris, he's probably better looking any way. And just reach out to him to follow up back. But you talk about, page 62, developing your onboarding process. That was one of the first things we did. In fact, I did a couple things like completely revamp the onboarding process, I hired dedicated instructional designers, I remember getting people saying what's an instructional designer? And I'm like, that's the person who's going to make killer content and train you guys and qualify you guys and certify you guys. I remember taking the training program, which was several days previously. And now we're between three and four weeks, between our minimum of three. And we're actually learning as we keep hiring more reps and put them into the program that even three may be ambitious, because by the Friday of every week, they're just so overwhelmed, they need a day to decompress, to review what they've learned on Monday to Thursday. So our three week programs have become basically a three and a half week program, giving them that time to just understand it. And then you've got the whole idea around in two weeks minimally. And I love that. So many people don't give any training, I can't stand when people say put them on the phones. That's how you learn. Put them on the phones. I'm like, really? You want your brand by some buffoon who doesn't know what the hell to say. And it could be a perfectly good leader, but because they pissed them off, because they're a moron. They were dumb ass, because they had no training. That's what you want? So anyway, that's my point of view. So you talk about that. And then you go on. And you talk about building your sales development playbook. And this is where we put the biggest amount of investment. When I took over, we hired experts, even though we're in this business, this is what I do every single day, I still hired outside people to help me to have a sanity check in the... Because they see so many other people than just me. Because I was a first time CRO, right? So they can help me overcome some of these mistakes. We spent a lot of time and money. And we actually held back on hiring. And so we had the playbook completed and done. And then once the playbook was done, that's what drove our ideal candidate profiles. So we knew how to hire to support the playbook. Again, where the hell was this book in July 2020? So talk to me about the playbook. I mean, how many companies out there get this wrong, David?

David Dulany: Yeah, well, it makes me think of like... Not to give a military reference but it's like looking at-

Darryl: But you're going to give a military reference?

David Dulany: crosstalk The analogy is boot camp. So the way... Boot camp is all set up correctly. They have the sergeant who has done this several times and everything is all crosstalk. Right? And you put somebody in there with no experience, they come out ready to go to battle. And what we do with SDR is a lot of the times is there's no boot camp, I mean, you just walk in, they give you a rifle, it could be like the best possible technology. And pat on the back, shave your head and you're out. And not even a leader a lot of times. A lot of times SDR programs don't even have a manager. So it's a bit of a mess out there. And you look at the playbook for example, is a place where you can focus the tribal learning and put it all into one package so that now you've got something to really bite down on during that boot camp process to get them ready to go out and represent your brand. So it's critical. The other quick thing is, a lot of people are intimidated by bringing in advisors and consultants and things like that. Because back in the'80s and'90s, it was like, oh, my God, I'm going get outsourced, or McKinsey is coming in and going to layoff half the company. But the best leaders out there are constantly bringing in consultants and advisors and helpers, just for your point, they can see around the corners, they're not laser focused in like you are and they can bring in a lot of value from seeing outside the industry and what's working out there.

Darryl: Well, the only reason I even was aware to do all this, I mean, A, I've been doing this for a long time, but B, it was because again, I reached out to all those other people, including yourself, if I recall, to get that input, right? So for those of you who think you can do it on your own, you can't. You're a moron if you try to do it on your own, use your network. Ironically, going back to why you build your brand, is your brand will actually help build your own network at the same time, believe it or not. Because building a brand doesn't mean you're creating a group of followers, a group of groupies, you're not the Pied Piper, it means you're building a reputation for being someone who's knowledgeable. That's as attractive to someone to follow your content as it is for a peer or colleague or somebody whom you're a groupie of to come back to you and say help me understand this more, and you have those healthy conversations. Because you seem credible, and I can learn something from you. That's like when you're selling, when you're selling every single prospect is interested in what you have to say if they perceive that you can help them learn something or fix something. So again, personal brand does exactly that. And on that front, one of the things we didn't talk about was that page 130 onward, David actually gives you the actual how to build your brand, not just what is a brand, how to build your brand, which is the question I get over and over again. I'm not you Praill, I can't do what you did. Yeah, bullshit, you can, just follow these steps. Because you know what, there was a time when I didn't have a brand either. So now, the playbook is massive. Reps, do you know your playbook? Go to your boss and say, what's your playbook? Are you interviewing for a job? Ask them, show me the playbook. You will get the right job when they say hey, great question. Here it is. Okay, that's massive. Now, I know we're out of time, I want to end here, page 100. You start getting into the stuff that nobody wants to talk about, which are analysis, analytics. Page 300 specifically. What metrics should you be tracking? One of my conditions why I took the job was that I had permission, I got three. One, I can hire a rep anywhere in the world. Two, I built a sales enablement team, hence why we have the kind onboarding everything else. Three, I built a formal RevOps team. So why RevOps? Many reasons, but one, specifically not sales ops, marketing ops, it's RevOps, is that, my reps needed to know and monitor and optimize how they were doing. That's back to that commitment to growth, all right? Is that my reps should be hungry for data and analysis so they can continue to optimize myself, but secondarily, as a leader, I needed data. Because when the CEO and my executive peers or the board comes to me and says, why didn't we do this? Or why are we doing that? I need to be able to give them, this is why, here's the data. And because I have the data, I have now made informed decisions to how I'm adjusting my playbook, or I'm adjusting my hiring or whatever it might be. Data was critical. Reps don't like metrics, David. How do you do metrics as a leader and sell it to your reps as a good thing?

David Dulany: Yeah, I mean, that's a really good point. And real quick, and if there's anyone they have an SDR team or they're putting it together, one thing to think about is you can't do it all. There's specialists and you don't necessarily have to go and hire six SDRs. If you can, break off at least one person that's that hybrid RevOps/ enablement person to support the team. It's huge because most SDR managers burn out quick because they're trying to do everything. The art and the science and I see it all the time out there. So if you can convince someone to help you to break off at least one headcount for that position, I would highly recommend it because as Darryl said, it's so critical. And so from a metrics perspective, to your question, Darryl, tie it back to what's important to the business. That's what's critical. As sales development leaders, we really don't have a seat at the table because a lot of times, we're clueless to be honest about what effect this has and the cost that it takes to put one of these teams together. So the more that you can bring expertise into what's important to the business, the more relevant the metrics will become. So I'll give an example. What's the most important thing for the CRO? Revenue. Right? So how do we tie all of our metrics back to the most important number for Darryl and everything that we're doing to make Darryl look great, those are the metrics that we want to focus on.

Darryl: I want to book you for another follow on conversation, maybe five years from now, because I got to build up my courage to be in the same room with you. One of the things we don't talk about in here, it's an advanced topic. But once you've been a sales leader for a while, you know what I'm talking about. And maybe you reps listening will go, oh, yeah, I get it, is roles and responsibilities. So what I mean by that is this, it's been my experience, that the CEO tries to do the CRO job. The director of VP sales, tries to do the CRO job. The sales rep tries to do the director of sales job, because we all have this issue about control, I have these problems. And I'm just going to take control because I don't see anybody else doing it. Because yeah, you're in every single meeting, you know exactly what's taking place. And what you get is discord and disharmony in the team, because you won't stay in your lane or you won't trust the process, you won't trust the person to do their job. I'd love to have a conversation with you sometime about roles and responsibilities to a healthy and successful sales team. Because I think that's the next big problem we need to solve. With that said, guys, we're out of time, David page 157 got a great list of recommended reading clearly stuff that he's consulted. And when he and Kyle put this book together, ironically, I didn't notice this until just now, but apparently, some guy named Darryl Praill on how to create a winning culture for your sales development reps was referenced in here. So that's brilliant. I like that. I do have a concern. I did go through the Table of Contents, the index. And David, as I go through here, I looked under D. And I looked under P. And I didn't see any reference to Darryl Praill on the table of contents. I'm assuming that was an editorial oversight. And you'll rectify that in version two of the book?

David Dulany: Oh, yeah. Yep, definitely. It's actually going to be completely dedicated to you, Darryl.

Darryl: Get rid of the riffraff, this race is focus.

David Dulany: Just one name.

Darryl: Just one name. Now, my friend, you've got an event coming up, I just got the email the other day in my inbox on August. Talk to me about that, and with my audience care about attending that? And if so, why?

David Dulany: Absolutely. I mean, it's right on with what we're talking about today. And hopefully, we can get you on board. And we could dive in more on this. So we're talking revenue alignment, which is right up your alley, and how to herd the cats if you will, or the go to market team so that we're working as a machine versus what we see out there. And what you alluded to more of a, well, not at VanillaSoft, but at some companies out there, it's synchronized.

Darryl: I hear Sales Loft and Outreach are really dysfunctional that's what I hear. Just throwing that out there.

David Dulany: We hear all kinds of stuff and so we're going to be focusing on how do we create revenue alignment and then create opportunities for SDR leaders to move in. The next generation of SDR leaders are looking at things from a pipeline perspective, and can really add a ton of value to companies and their own career by thinking bigger. So that's the theme. It's August 25. Not sure when this is going to come out, but it's free registration, August 25. And it's over at tenbound. com.

Darryl: All right guys. I interview a lot of people who write some really great books. This one is personal for me, because I'm living it. And chances are, if you're a sales leader, you are too. If you have aspirations for sales leadership, there is a big, dramatic, substantial abyss between what it is to be a sales rep and what is to be a sales leader. And I strongly suggest you buy this for a little professional development. So you understand and you can start to make that transition necessary in your own professional approach to your job, or how to get hired, or what to ask in an interview, or with a challenge to make sure it's the right fit for you. This is all part of you becoming a better sales pro. Finally, if you find your sales leadership's perhaps is not optimal in your organization, wonderful people, just not optimal. Let's go with that. This makes a great gift and you don't have to say it's from anybody, could just be completely anonymous, just shows up on their seat one day. And there it is. All right, get all learned something. It's a Sales Development Framework. It's on Amazon. And I'm sure it's in every major bookstore nearby, but I just tend to shop on Amazon, so that's me. Give it a review. Give it a like, follow David on LinkedIn. He's very active there. He's also very active on Twitter. He's the best re- tweeter I have out there. I just wanted you to know that. And check out the Tenbound event. David, thanks for your time today. As always, I've had a lot of fun. How you doing my friend? Are you staying well?

David Dulany: Yeah, I mean, it's just an honor to be here, to be on the show, and I want to thank you for always supporting Tenbound and being a big fan. So you're awesome, man. Thanks for putting this on.

Darryl: Kids we're done. We're out of time, running way over time. But for Dulany, we give a little extra minute or two for him. As always, I'd be most grateful if you could spread the love on the show. Maybe send a link to a friend, tell them to listen to this episode specifically, maybe send this link to your boss and just say, hey, you know what, I think you might get something out of this. In the meantime, we're done. We're out of here. My name is Darryl. This is another episode in the books of The INSIDE Inside Sales show, take care. We'll talk to you next week. Bye- bye.