Speaker 1: Hey there, product lovers. Welcome to the Product Love Podcast, hosted by Eric Boduch, co- founder and chief evangelist of Pendo and super fan of all things product. Product Love is the place for real insights into the world of crafting products as Eric interviews founders, product leaders, venture capitalists, authors, and more. So let's dive in now with today's Product Love Podcast.
Eric Boduch: Welcome over to product today. I'm here with Amir who's the founder and CEO of Doist. Amir, why don't you start this off by giving us a little overview of your background?
Amir Salihefendić: Yeah, sure. So, I was born in Bosnia. I grew up in Denmark and my real background is computer science. So I started coding when I was very young. And then I started to do side projects and then eventually ended up building a to- do app for myself. And this to- do app basically has grown to millions of users since then. And I also built a company of about a hundred people around it. And we are fully remote. We have been fully remote since 2010. So, over a decade in this and we are still going strong. And we also have another product called Twist, which is asynchronous team communication. And daily, I'm just a CEO, founder/ janitor of the company doing a lot of different stuff. I also have a huge passion for products and building great products and building something that people want to use, that I myself want to use and stuff like that. So that has been really a deep passion of mine for many years.
Eric Boduch: So Doist started as something you wanted for yourself, right?
Amir Salihefendić: Exactly. Yeah. So, I started Todoist in 2007 from my dorm room. So I was studying computer science and I needed a to- do app to manage my projects, manage my day, manage my life. So, that's basically how it started. And I basically built it for myself. I also probably use it for most days since I started it. So I'm most a super user of the tool myself still.
Eric Boduch: Now, talk to me a little bit about growth. You mentioned you're a hundred employees now. Started about 13, 14 years ago, the company. How has the growth been for Doist? Has it been steady? Has it come in fits and starts?
Amir Salihefendić: Sure. Something to know is, this was a side project for me for the first three or four years. So I didn't really see a lot of potential in Todoist itself. And this wasn't like a typical startup where you go and raise some funding and hire a bunch of people. For me, it was just a side project we were doing on the side. And that also reflected in the early growth. Early, it didn't grow a lot. And also, there was a lot of stuff that were missing, even insights for instance, there was no analytics. So, the way that I would do analytics basically like a query directly on the database to figure out how many signups there were, or how many tasks people added and stuff like that. So it was a very rough start. And then I had other job. My primary job was a CTO of a social network from 2007 to 2010. And then this was like a night job for me. And then when I return back then, things really kicked off. And also a lot of stuff I learned while doing the social network, I applied to Doist, the product. And then I also started to hire people. We started to invest a lot in mobile, which was growing faster at that point. So, that was probably the biggest growth we have seen was actually around 2013, 2014, where we hired people and built great mobile apps. And since then it has basically been a continuous, almost compounding growth.
Eric Boduch: So what made you realize that there was an opportunity in the task management space? I mean, when did you have that aha moment?
Amir Salihefendić: It took me many years to actually get that aha moment. Because a lot of people, they end up creating a to- do app at some point and you never think you would actually create one of the most popular to- do apps. And there was a huge market for this as well. And people really are passionate about this and you feel like you're solving a very big problem for people because, organizing life and work is a huge problem that I still think is kind of unsolved. So that's one very click for me. There's probably a huge opportunity here, but it took me years to actually see that.
Eric Boduch: So talk to me about how you funded it through the process. How did Todoist grow?
Amir Salihefendić: It was basically bootstrapped from the beginning. Actually, I added a business model very early on in 2007 because I didn't want to pay for the civil costs. And since then, the way that we have grown is, we create revenues, then we put revenues back into the company to hire more people. And then we build better stuff, get more revenues and then it's a loop that we had that. So, we have almost zero external investment. The only thing that helped along the way was equity free 40K from Start- Up Chile. So basically at some point, a trial to Start- Up Chile to be part of a startup accelerator. And they gave you 40K to be six months in Chile. So, that is the only outside investment. Everything else is bootstrapped and created via the loop, by the customers for the customers.
Eric Boduch: Have you ever thought of taking money, especially now that you've grown to a certain scale? A hundred employees. I'm not sure what on the revenue side, but it has to be substantial. Have you thought about raising money?
Amir Salihefendić: That has crossed my mind at some point, but the thing is, we also do things very differently at Doist. And one of the things I like to say is, my exit strategy is debt. So there's no, I want to die doing this. I don't really have a exit strategy. And also, you have a lot freedom and ability to define the culture that we want, the milestones that we want, the company that we want to build and do this very long- term. And I feel like it's really hard to find investors that are aligned with that a lot of times. Of course, it's possible to do that, but for us, it's not really worth the risk. I don't want to put the company or the mission at risk for doing that because, we have real no need to actually get outside funding. If we did that, it would just be stored in a bank account. I don't know. Maybe it could make sense at some point, but right now, we have survived so long doing what we're doing and it goes pretty good. So maybe risking it or getting somebody that's not aligned or pushes you to do something that you don't want. They say getting investors in is worse than marriage, because there's no divorce.
Eric Boduch: That is true. It's a little bit harder to get divorced than in a marriage. So, hundred people at Doist, what teams do you personally manage?
Amir Salihefendić: I manage the current product team. I'm actually also acting like a head of product. So we don't actually have... We are hiring head of product right now. And then also the design team. And then I also manage the CXO team. The other, we have a CEO and CTO who also report to me. So basically, design, product and then the CXO team.
Eric Boduch: But you're hands- on then on the product and the design side and I assume have been since the beginning?
Amir Salihefendić: Yeah. I'm fully invested in this. And also I find that work very exciting.
Eric Boduch: So what's product management like at Doist?
Amir Salihefendić: The thing about Doist is, we do things very, very differently from regular companies. So I have actually never spoke to somebody that does product like we do. So, we have a special structure, which is basically like... Product is a side job at Doist. So we don't actually have anybody almost full- time on this aspect. And then we have a hybrid team of different leaders inside the company. So for instance, our CTO is part of this team. Our head of design is part of this team. Our head of integrations is part of this team. And then some other leaders as well. And basically we have a small group that does product discussions and product specs. We also do regular stuff like, roadmapping and product planning, product visioning strategy. But it's very different because we don't really have a head of product. We are trying to maybe change from this current structure because this doesn't really scale that well, because some of our people, like for instance, Ana, who is head of design, she has nine designers reporting to her. And then she also needs to do product work on the side, which becomes very overwhelming as the organizations grows. This side, I can definitely recommend this hybrid structure. This has really worked well for us because a lot of times, you also have a problem with alignment between design, engineering and product. And we don't really don't have this problem because engineering is at the table and design as well, making decisions and you don't have this battle that maybe is usually present. This structure doesn't really scale that well.
Eric Boduch: But it's worked for you up into a hundred people, right? And now you're starting to feel the pain?
Amir Salihefendić: Yeah. I wouldn't say we started to feel the pain. I think some of the best work we have done is the work that we're doing right now. Because, we have worked together for almost a decade. So we know each other very well. We also know the product space very well. But the problem is really with the structure is, it's not really scalable. It works nicely. We have not really hit the pain point, but I think at some point, people will burn out doing this because it's too much responsibility on different fronts. And then maybe you begin to do a poor job because maybe you're not doing your core job well, and then you're not doing your side job well either. And that isn't really great.
Eric Boduch: So one of the things you mentioned that I wanted to get back to is remote work. You're an advocate for remote. Talk to me about remote at Doist, what it's been like. And then let's dig into those people that are now dabbling in remote, what tips you'd have for them.
Amir Salihefendić: Something to note again, it's we do stuff very differently. I think remote is a spectrum where you can have office work, on one end it's like 9: 00 to 5: 00, you have the whole team there, the whole company. And then the other extreme is basically, you have people all around the world, you're fully asynchronous. You can work and live wherever and whenever. And that is our current structure is, we have people in 35, 40 countries. You don't need to work at a specific time. And most of the stuff it happens in the written world, we have very, very few meetings as well. So it's a really very environment from the regular work. And we believe this, our model will be the future of work. And the reason for this is that, a lot of the stuff that we do is deep work and creative work. And I don't really think 9: 00 to 5: 00 optimizes for that. So, we really want to enable people to use... When they feel most creative, more sanitized then, they should go in and work. They should not be forced to work in a specific schedule. So that's one aspect. Another aspect is, you give so much freedom for feasibility to people as well. So they can first plan their life and then afterwards plan their work and not do it like most office work where you first, you spend hours commuting and then you need to have a specific schedule. You need to go into the office work and stuff like that. So, that's at least our model is very extreme and some other companies are doing the similar thing as us, like Basecamp, GET Lab, Buffer, Zapier. So we are definitely seeing a movement to asynchronous first, remote first.
Eric Boduch: How do you deal with things like collaboration in that kind of environment?
Amir Salihefendić: And I think that's also like a broken model right now. People think that innovation and creativity happens at a whiteboard. But we believe that deep work, thinking hard about a hard problem, proposing that problem, and collaborating that way is much, much better model than this model where you're forced to think on the spot. And then you brainstorm shallow ideas. And even versus the current environment, we also have chat rooms, one- line thinking and fast communication. For us, that's really bad way to look at profound ideas or innovate or think deeply about stuff.
Eric Boduch: So, tell me more how it works more at Doist? How do you do it? What works the best?
Amir Salihefendić: I think Patrick Collison from Stripe telling that, Stripe is kind of like the celebration of the written word. And I think Doist is a very similar select. A lot of stuff happens. You need to be a great writer. You need to be able to articulate your ideas in a written form. And this is for design. This is for product. This is for marketing. This is for engineering. Everybody really needs to be a good writer. So that's basically what is like at the baseline.
Eric Boduch: So then extrapolating on that, and just let me see if I have this right. You spend as opposed to brainstorming meetings, whiteboards, that kind of stuff. There's a lot more alone time so to speak, to think deeply about a subject. From that, you might be putting together a written proposal of some kind saying," Hey, here's all I think we can innovate in this area." That proposal gets reviewed asynchronously by other members of the team, commented on, revised, iterated. It's that kind of process where a lot of the deep thinking happens with a single person brainstorming and then collaboration takes form over some kind of written component. Is that accurate my guess?
Amir Salihefendić: That is accurate. Yeah. We just said we still sometimes do meetings as well. So meetings are quite useful if you have a disagreement or for one- on- one meetings or personal feedback or stuff like that. So I still think you need to sometimes have the synchronous. The idea is basically that it should not be the default way that you collaborate. So you should only bring up the meeting if you're really, really disagreeing about the direction something strategic or something like that. So, that is basically how we do that. And it's not like the starting point isn't the meeting, the starting point is, bring forth your idea, I bring forth mine and then we see if our meeting is even necessary.
Eric Boduch: I'm curious, how much of your time is spent in meetings as the CEO?
Amir Salihefendić: I'm not sure if you know the newsletter, Superorganizers. But I have an interview there where I share my calendar. And I have a few meetings per week. So that's it. So crosstalk
Eric Boduch: But then I'm sure you have impromptu meetings about things that maybe you're not in alignment with someone on. So guess, is 10, 20, 30% of your time in meetings? Is it, what might be typical 60, 70%? I assume you're not that high.
Amir Salihefendić: Honestly, I think it's less than 10%.
Eric Boduch: That's awesome especially as a person who hates meetings generally. I mean, not always but...
Amir Salihefendić: I think some meetings are super useful, but I think this current culture that we have of... I know some other CEOs they're in meetings all day long. I think that first of all, that will kill me to be part of that culture. But the other thing is, I don't really think it's the best way to work either.
Eric Boduch: I'm curious then, where do you spend most of your time? On what kind of subjects?
Amir Salihefendić: Honestly, I spent a lot of time on things like product. Thinking about a product, helping different teams out in regards to product work. So I'm still very, very hands- on product. And also product vision, major product initiatives, I usually also, I have a foot in there as well. So that's one aspect. Another aspect is, I still do active development. So I still spend a few hours per day developing. So that is also very-
Eric Boduch: I see you have your hands well in.
Amir Salihefendić: Yeah.
Eric Boduch: They are in the pot.
Amir Salihefendić: Yeah, they are in the pot. But honestly, for me that's the stuff that I really enjoy doing is creating, imagining. And for me, managing other people, that's also some of the co- values we have for instance, independence. You should not really expect to be micromanaged or managed at all by somebody else. So that's basically what we expect from people. So you usually don't really fit it if you need to have somebody else tell you what you need to do. So that's why also, I don't really have a lot of staff because I'm very hands- off. So that means I can spend time coding, which I find really fun. Or doing product work like thinking about product initiatives and the direction we should take which for me, a lot more energizing than micromanagement of a person.
Eric Boduch: Yeah. No, I can understand that. Now, because you have the synchronous culture too, how much of that time is spent reviewing other people's ideas and directions and proposals? So how does that fit into your overall time? Even though it's not a meeting, it's that kind of feedback that other people might give in a meeting.
Amir Salihefendić: Honestly, I would tell probably 40%, maybe more. So, I spent a lot of time reading and writing as well. So actually, the majority of my time is spent doing either reading or writing.
Eric Boduch: That's interesting. I think it's very interesting how important the written word is in your company, right?
Amir Salihefendić: Yeah. And honestly, I think it's really underrated because it scales so much better especially... Another thing we have introduced a year ago was the handbook. So GET Lab, I'm not sure if you know GET Lab, but it's a huge remote first company of a thousand people something. And they have a handbook- first approach. So they have a handbook about 5, 000 pages or something like that. We have actually started to invest in our own. I think we only have about 500 pages right now. But that has been an amazing investment because, you documents stuff across the company. And then if you have a new person joining, you can just point them in the right direction they can find the information. Then we also have a great search on top of that as well. So you can just find stuff very easily. So that's why I think written is also much more scalable because basically, you can reference to it later. And also if you have some really good writers writing that, then it's usually maybe small that that would be the... So I think even big companies, most of them at some point actually need to switch off from the verbal communication, because it's just not scalable. That's at least my impression.
Eric Boduch: I think it's interesting because it does get lost. Even if it's recorded, even if you're recording these Zoom sessions or what have you, it's not the easiest place to find information. And maybe that's a problem for some people to solve and maybe the bar is solving it. But the written word is a lot more searchable. It leaves that whole translation step and you start, like you said, you start building a library of assets, of strategies, conversations, other things that have happened that people can look to for information.
Amir Salihefendić: Exactly. And I think also the editing process is also really critical. A lot of times in meetings you get ramps or brain dumps. You don't really get the nice package and that's what you can get. With written word it's packaged nicely, really framed idea, correctly and maybe even iterate on that. Of course, some people are best on the verbal front. That is definitely true. So I think they will be disadvantaged, but also a lot of people are weak at that. So it's maybe even the remote and asynchronous and written will actually change company dynamics because usually, in companies you have people that are extrovert that they succeed and maybe are also better at the verbal form like building relationships and stuff like that. And maybe in this new environment of remote first async- first it's really people that are maybe deep thinkers, great writers and stuff like that. And then it doesn't really matter that much your verbal communication.
Eric Boduch: So talk to me a little bit about decision frameworks. What decision frameworks do you use to guide the team? Do you look at things like jobs to be done? How do you approach some of that?
Amir Salihefendić: Honestly, a lot of times, that's something that we are still experimenting with. So jobs to be done has been very influential. We're also very good at sharing for instance, Lenny's Newsletter. I'm not sure if you read that, but Lenny was one of the Airbnb, I think early product team from Airbnb. And right now he's like a-
Eric Boduch: I haven't read his newsletter. When I hear Lenny now, I think of a Hydra.
Amir Salihefendić: But he has world- class content about a lot of different stuff. And all the stuff, we are just sharing that and trying that out and seeing how it goes. And I think Shape Up as well for instance from Basecamp has been also a bit influential. And then, we are also not really afraid of saying," Fuck it. Let's think from the first principles and try something out." And then we end up in some place that not many other teams have been. And sometimes we also try stuff that doesn't really work. I think honestly, a lot of stuff is broken. I think OKRs are awful. And maybe the only team that can actually make them work is Google. And Google does not really... I'm not sure if you have tried to work with Google, but they don't have things figured out. We have had a lot of project with Google, is basically much more chaotic than the situation that we have inside Doist. The advantage they have, is they have hundreds of thousands of people. I'm actually not sure how many they have, but... And then they have a golden goose that just prints money. And then with that, you don't really need to think about efficiency. And then can do stuff like OKR system, which... That's just one example. But some other example is NPS, if you look at it from the statistical angle, it just like a broken system. So, a lot of times crosstalk
Eric Boduch: Would you fix... I understand Google, OKRs, there's definitely challenges with them, I don't want to get into all that. But NPS is interesting to me because it never seems perfect. I would definitely say it's not perfect, but I also look at it and I'm like, I'm not sure how to fix it. How would you fix it?
Amir Salihefendić: It's a great question. I don't have a better framework for that, but the thing is maybe vanity metrics and I think NPS is kind of a vanity metric and maybe finding something else. For instance, for us, something that we care deeply about is daily actives. And then daily actives is defined for Todoist as people that are completing stuff. And then looking at that data, maybe looking at cohorts on that, tells you maybe a much better picture than asking random people to rate you from 0 to 10.
Eric Boduch: No, I get it. But then I'm thinking, let's take a company, that's building the Todoist's competitor and they launched it out there and their daily actives are great. They don't do anything as far as NPS or any way to look at satisfaction. They think they're all happy and then what they find is a month in, their retention just starts cratering. No indicator until it's too late. So, one of the things that you can think about NPS is it as an indicator of future action? What would you replace that with?
Amir Salihefendić: The thing we have replaced it with is a few notes, metrics that we monitor and care deeply about. And the problem is, I could go on a bigger rant about the NPS. And actually there's an article, probably many articles that are written about why it does not really make a lot of sense to look at it that way. This said, people use that maybe it's better than using nothing, but for us-
Eric Boduch: When you dig a little deeper, I understand daily active users, how many are daily versus monthly ratios, all that kind of stuff, I think is great. What are your metrics that you look at beyond DA is?
Amir Salihefendić: So, that's another thing, is you can actually go in and then find a ton of metrics. And honestly, I think that's kind of also a broken model. So I would rather have a few numbers. So for instance, for us, for the company, it's revenues per employee. That's what we care about, there's one number. For product, you can basically have... Especially if you go deeper into the product, it's maybe activation. How good are you actually at activating people? Retention, how good are you at retaining people? Those would be, I think much more healthy metrics than a random survey of people asking them how they feel because-
Eric Boduch: No, I absolutely agree. So, you look at revenue per employee because that's a great metric as far as, how efficiently you run your company. You look at retention because obviously, retention in the SaaS world, retention means ARR over the long- term. And then you also look at activations, which is starting people on that whole lifetime value curve. Anything you guys use for trying to be predictive about churn? I can understand retention, but once you're looking at those numbers, it's all kind of you're making changes to improve things going forward. Is there anything you guys look at to try to show that there's indicators of things moving in the wrong direction?
Amir Salihefendić: Honestly, I think that's something that we find super useful in a lot of cases is cohort analytics. Because it kind of tells you, if you just look at numbers in my aggregate, it doesn't really tell you much. While if you look at, for instance, I can take a look and see last week sign- ups, how are they actually doing compared to a month ago? And then we also have segmentations. We can look at specific features, how they're used. So if we're doing something, let's say that we're improving the Quick Ad, we would actually expect the usage to increase and then we can take a look at that and see did that actually happen or not. And then the same thing is like the cohorts also, are a great way to think about retention of features as well and stuff like that. So honestly, that's our master tool is cohort analytics that we use.
Eric Boduch: I'm a huge fan of that. And I love what you're doing on the feature side too, because a lot of people, if you think about it, it's like," Okay, I launched this feature I'm done." And I'm like," No, wait a minute. You have to actually see if it's making an impact, that your customers, if they're using it. If it's changing the amount of people that are using it in a positive direction, if it's delivering value, that kind of stuff." So I think it's awesome that you guys are tracking that information.
Amir Salihefendić: And honestly, that is super useful. And a lot of times something that we are trying to get away from is being data- driven. We are mostly data- informed and then especially, what we are also trying is, we have been at this for many years, what you figure out is, there's no silver bullets. And also, it's very hard to predict the future and how somebody will react to something. So, for instance, like setting a goal, for instance, let's improve retention by 5% or 10%. You can set that goal, but good luck with that, trying to figure out which feature will actually bring that and how do you actually... You need to try stuff and look back and see what kind of effects did it have. At least that's was our experience, we're trying to be more data- driven. I'm not sure what your experience has been on this front. Maybe we are doing it wrongly.
Eric Boduch: No. The words, data- driven, data- informed, I don't think anyone wants to be blinders on, doesn't consider anything except the underlying numbers, because what do they say about statistics? There's lots of things that can lead you down the wrong path. There's lots of things that can lead you down the right path too. So I do think everything needs to be taken in context. And I am a big fan of iteration. Quick, fast iteration experiments are probably the most important thing because the market's changing, the world's changing as you're doing this. So spending too much time coming up with the perfect solution to growth or retention or whatever it happens to be, is based upon yesterday's variables. So if it's taking you a long time to roll something out, and the market potentially has changed, or customer's needs have changed, how they approach things has changed, something is likely changed in some parts. So I'm a big fan of doing things quickly iterating, but constantly experimenting on things. It sounds like you guys do.
Amir Salihefendić: Yeah, definitely. That's what we do.
Eric Boduch: So talk to me about the future. We're obviously living in a remote world right now because of the pandemic. I imagine that's potentially going to have ramifications even post- pandemic, right?
Amir Salihefendić: Yeah. Honestly, I think we are moving into a world... And especially for us, we have for many years believed the future of work is remote. Asynchronous first and remote. And I think this pandemic has just been an acceleration of that. But most people do this in a bad way. So if you look at like how the typical worker right now, knowledge worker works is based being stuck in Zoom calls and Slack rooms all day long. And that's definitely not how we envision the future to be. So, we envision a future where you can basically live anywhere and you can have an amazing life as you see. Some people like to surf, other people like to be with their kids or whatever people want to do. And also live wherever you want in the world. And then have also amazing job because that's also something that I think is under appreciated. It's the first time in human history where you can get an amazing job regardless of where you live. You don't need to live close to your work. So that has crosstalk.
Eric Boduch: Is Barcelona your favorite place to live? Is that the place anywhere in the world you'd live?
Amir Salihefendić: Yeah. And that's something. I have been in this space for a long time. Me and my wife, we actually visited the cities that we wanted to live in. And then we stayed there for few months to get a feel for the city. And then we picked Barcelona because honestly, it's really amazing work- life quality. We don't actually know anybody in Barcelona. We have been here for... When we started four years ago, we basically came here, didn't know anybody and built our social circle from that. But also, it has also been super tough to do that because, it sounds amazing, but there's a reason why most people just don't do what we are doing. Because you need to recreate your social circles, reintegrate into the local community and stuff, which is quite tough to do, honestly especially as you get older.
Eric Boduch: What other cities did you spend two months in? I'm curious.
Amir Salihefendić: We had Madrid, was another city. We looked at Berlin, Copenhagen, New York, San Francisco. And then also, my wife is from Santiago, Chile. So of course, Chile was also under consideration.
Eric Boduch: So what was city number two? What was number two on the list?
Amir Salihefendić: That's actually Santiago, Chile, just because we have family there. We already have social circle there. We also were really gung- ho about Berlin, but then the German language and stuff like that, that was not so appealing as... Because, I speak Spanish and my wife natively. So Spain is just much easier to do than German.
Eric Boduch: I remember traipsing around some back restaurants in Barcelona and my Spanish is a little weak. High school Spanish coming back is... I can get some things across, but that was a little tougher. So what else as far as trends for the future?
Amir Salihefendić: We want to build the future of work, be part of this, create tools, create processes. So, that's basically where we all lean to. And then also we have not really talked a lot about Twist, which is our team communication tool, this kind of asynchronous first, which we have been building for the last few years. And we are very excited about especially, that nobody else in the market... Everybody's copying Slack and synchronous as default and stuff like that. And nobody is really valuing deep work, ability to actually disconnect, the ability to also communicate in a deeper way than one- liners. So that's one aspect. And of course for today's, we have a ton of ideas there as well. We are super excited of helping people become better at managing their work, managing their life. That has been a huge mission for a long time and hopeful-
Eric Boduch: Outside of Doist, what other trends do you see in tech that are interesting?
Amir Salihefendić: Something that I'm deeply into is crypto. I know crypto has a very bad... But honestly I think this will have a huge impact. So, especially something like decentralized finance, rebuilding the finance from the ground up and making digital, I think that will be a huge, huge strength. And there will be a lot of second order effects based on this. So for instance, like how we structure companies like equity management, I'm not sure if you have managed equity. But it's like a fricking system that's built hundreds of years ago, maybe a hundred plus years ago. And it still works in the same way. And it's like really, really bad on so many levels and we can make it much more effective and also much more powerful. You could imagine a system where everybody has equity in the stuff they contribute to. It can be employees, it can also be developers that are building on top of your platform and stuff like that. So I think there's some exploration here, but that just one tiny aspect of decentralized finance system. A lot of stuff that we currently have is also not working. A lot of people in the world also still don't have a basic bank account. So there's still a lot of work cut out for us. So, that's one trend. Another of course, it's artificial intelligence. I think in product development, this will become super, super critical. We can see this in consumer space, TikTok is basically an AI algorithm that presents you stuff. But I think also in work, this will also be very, very critical for the future. Just removing ground work for people and enabling them to work on more meaningful stuff. So that's one element that we are actually going to invest a lot in is, how do we remove ground work from people?
Eric Boduch: I think both of those things are interesting. I was just reading Ascent of Money, which is an interesting chronicling of the history of finance of the world and how it's changed written by Ferguson, I think is the historian's name which I found utterly enthralling. And when you think about that in today's world of crypto and also the world of modern monetary theory, we could spend a lot of time. That would be a fun thing to chat about sometime, maybe not on the podcast. But I do think that's all interesting. And it is interesting too, on the AI side, how that's changing, how product managers need to think about how machine learning can impact their business, and how they can focus that in the right ways to provide value to their customers. And then there's the whole downside to that bias of algorithms. Does it keep showing me stuff I like and therefore I like that stuff more? And it gets narrower and narrower. You hear about that a lot in things like dating applications and stuff like that. Well, cool. This has been a lot of fun. I got two final questions for you. What's your favorite product?
Amir Salihefendić: I would pick one that I think is super, super hard to do right because... And it's Stripe. So, we have before used some crappy products like PayPal that are horrific on so many levels. And then you use Stripe and it works and it's beautifully made and it's very easy to use. Of course, it's kind of a development based product, but you can see how the world was before, which is kind of PayPal. And then you see the new world of Stripe and it's just beautiful. So that's probably one of my favorite. And I think they deserve all the credits they have gotten over the years because it has saved us all a lot of time and pain.
Eric Boduch: I can understand that. I'm a big fan of Stripe myself. So final question for you, three words to describe yourself.
Amir Salihefendić: I'm a creator. So, I liked creating stuff. So that's probably why I still do stuff on the more creating level than managing. I think also I'm ambitious as well. And then the last one would be, to counter that, balanced. So that's why one of our core values is ambition and balance. Trying to make a difference in the world by doing it without burning myself in the process. So that's something that I will always try to keep these two forces at bay. A kind of yin and yang balance.
Eric Boduch: Well, sweet. I enjoyed this. Well, we'll have to touch base and talk about money at some point. Crypto and money.
Amir Salihefendić: That sounds like an awesome episode. I would love to do a deep dive on that.
Eric Boduch: This has been fun. Thanks again for joining us today.
Amir Salihefendić: Thank you for having me. It was a real pleasure.