Speaker 1: Hey there, product lovers. Welcome to the Product Love Podcast, hosted by Eric Boduch, co- founder and chief evangelist of Pendo and super fan of all things product. Product Love is the place for real insights into the world of crafting products as Eric interviews founders, product leaders, venture capitalists, authors, and more, so let's dive in now with today's Product Love Podcast.
Eric Boduch: Welcome, lovers of product today. I'm here with Albert Saniger, who's the founder and CEO of Nate. Albert, why don't you kick this off by giving us an overview of your background?
Albert Saniger: Thanks, Eric, for having me, I'm really excited to be here. A little bit about me, I'm Spanish originally. Although I grew up in France, so Spanish and French were my first two languages and then I moved to the States. I built a career as a founder with many failed companies, luckily like fast failures. Then, I also worked at Amazon doing private label strategy for their soft lines division. I founded Nate two and a half years ago.
Eric Boduch: Talk to me about how you first got into tech.
Albert Saniger: Oh, I love that question. If you think of tech as a series of skillsets, when I was nine years old, I started coding a language that is now pretty much dead. It was called Pascal. Dan started coding C ++, and then I went to college and majored in math and computer science. Although halfway through, I realized that my entire bandwidth was being taken by that and I wanted a social life so I changed my major to political philosophy, primarily to have something to talk about in social environments that wasn't recursive algorithms. I ended up starting a fashion company, which had nothing to do with either major. If you think of tech as an industry, after a company, I had founded, exited, I made a lot of cash and I went to business school. Then, I use the business school cloud to get a job in big tech, which in this case was Amazon and Amazon was the most natural transition because of my prior background in e- commerce. That's how I got into tech, I guess.
Eric Boduch: Yeah. Talk to me about the... Well, first interestingly, I considered myself one of the best Pascal programmers. I mean, I was awesome, but this is 30 years ago. I don't know that I can write any today. I don't know that it has any value at all today.
Albert Saniger: You and I can start a Pascal club. How about that?
Eric Boduch: We could, probably. That was the peak of my programming prowess. Tell me how did you get into Amazon? Well, tell me about... Sorry. Not as much how you got into Amazon. Tell me about the Amazon experience? What it was like working there? What it was like from you coming out of this school, having a diverse background? Talk to me about that.
Albert Saniger: I had a blast at Amazon. I learned so much, and keep in mind, I had never had a job before. I mean, I did many companies, as I mentioned. One of them made me a little bit of cash, so I was comfortable enough to take some risks in my career. I chose a really interesting and nimble team, which was working on deciding, which brands to launch, in which price points in which categories. It was quite the journey because I got to meet a ton of people different parts of Amazon. Amazon is, I always thought before that it's a massive company, but in fact it's more like thousands of small companies. I felt that I was in a startup within Amazon and I really enjoyed that. Although, at the end of the day, I realized that I'm a founder. In hindsight, it makes sense cause both of my parents are founders, but back then I felt like, " No. I need to grow up and get a job." That was my reasoning for joining Amazon. Then, I realized, " You know what? I can do this. I'm ready. I'm going to do this again." I started Nate.
Eric Boduch: Tell us about Nate. Talk to me about the launch experience, what problem you were trying to solve and where it is today?
Albert Saniger: All right. Interestingly, all of the problems that we're solving at need are in a way new and built on top of the first problem that I actually wanted to address. Back in the day when I started Nate, I had a much simpler brain than most people realize when they speak with me. When I was at Amazon, I had observed the buy now button and I became fascinated with it. Then, I heard also about plans that Amazon had to launch the Amazon Go store, which is this epic experience where you walk into the store, you grab a salad and you walk out or you want a drink, you walk back in and you grab the drink and you walk back out. There's no checkout. I thought to myself, " This is the future. The future of checkout is no checkout whatsoever." I asked myself, " How can I get ahead of it and build the world's first skip the checkout solution that truly works everywhere else?" Because Amazon is 50% of US e-commerce, but what do we do with y'all or 50%? Nate has solved this problem. While I know that in a way we're just getting started, we have less than 50 people working at Nate full- time right now. I could not be more proud of what we've accomplished in the last two years. Nate is the world's first and only universal checkout experience.
Eric Boduch: Awesome. Tell me about your experience now at Nate. What teams do you oversee?
Albert Saniger: At Nate, I oversee... I mean, we have five teams at Nate. We have tech, product, marketing, finance, and operations, and that's vertical. Then, horizontal, we divide our work into two acquisition, conversion, retention and monetization. I oversee all teams vertical and horizontal, but my job changes on a quarter by quarter basis because of the nature of my role as a founder. Right now, I contribute the most likely as to product legal and fundraising decisions.
Eric Boduch: You say that changes a lot? I talked a lot of founders that obviously have a strong product background, so they're driving product throughout the startup at least to a certain level, but yours various quarter to quarter more?
Albert Saniger: Yeah, exactly. I'm not good at anything. Actually, I'm good enough at enough things to not break them and then find someone who is much better than I am doing those things. Product is probably the loss function that I will fire myself from. Yeah. Ultimately, I am a junkie and I'm basically addicted to finding people who are 10 times better than I am at something that I'm doing. Then, firing myself from that.
Eric Boduch: I think that's a good role for a CEO, right?
Albert Saniger: Yeah. For sure. It's definitely a good role for a founder. There's also this transition that happens that I'm starting to sense that it'll happen very soon. It'll be like a one to two- year transition from founder mindset to CEO mindset because the Nate team is starting to shape up nicely. There are only so many areas that I can fire myself from eventually. Yeah. I think it's a very healthy mindset. This is also a very humbling one because when you meet someone who basically you're interviewing and they're telling you all the things that you shouldn't be doing and why the job that you are doing is, and it could be optimized. It's always fascinating because I have this feeling of, " Oh, my God. I really need to hire this person right now."
Eric Boduch: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. There's one thing I wanted to dig into that you just mentioned. The founder mindset versus the CEO mindset, explain what you meant by that.
Albert Saniger: I see the role of a founder as a series of firing yourself decisions, right? In no particular order, you mentioned, you speak with people who decide to drive product for longer or marketing for longer or tech for longer or finance for longer and so on. A good framework would be to fire yourself first from the things that you're worst at, but a different way of approaching it is to inaudible first that you have more readily available talent for, or a different way of looking at it are find yourself from the areas that are... In terms of importance versus urgency framework. Analyzing it from that perspective. It's almost like, I gave it to you as a binary founder minds versus CEO minds, but I think it's probably three stages. The first stage is a gut feeling driven stage where a lot of the decisions are made in uncertainty and darkness. There are very few people in a founder who can make those decisions. Then, once you start operationalizing, so on processes and that team, then you can start replacing yourself and you enter phase two. Phase two is a phase where it's data informed. Talked quite data driven yet. Right? It's data informs have a hypothesis and then you can validate or invalidate it quickly and then you need a different kind of person for it, so that's a transition phase. Then, phase three is a data- driven world. Right? If you think about it, the transition from founder mind to CEO mindset is taking all the functions of the company from gut- feeling driven to data- driven.
Eric Boduch: I understand. How about you? How does that end up affecting your area of responsibility as you fully transitioned to the CEO role away from the founder role?
Albert Saniger: Yeah.
Eric Boduch: Obviously you give up some of these functional areas that you would... If not run directly, been actively involved in, or at least in the weeds, so to speak, down in the details to some level. How do you feel like your role evolves after you've fired yourself from just about everything? So to speak.
Albert Saniger: Yeah. That's a good question. Well, I'm yet to see the full extent of it. We'll talk in a year and I'll give you a more accurate answer, but for now, I definitely see some differences between different functions. There are some areas in which I started as individual contributor and then became a manager and then became a manager of managers. When you reached that kind of level three of management in that function, then I basically just get updates. I get four nightly updates about what's going on and I do my best and I'll become a blocker for the inaudible which I move. There's some additional processes by which if there's an important decision that needs to be made, or if there's a decision that is still not, we don't have all the information yet about it. It requires someone making a call in uncertainty, then I will be brought back in for that decision and then I'll step out again and I'll hear the details of the next four nightly update, I guess.
Eric Boduch: Okay. Let's jump into a little bit more about Nate. Talk to me about how retail tech's changing? What you see as the emerging trends there? How's AI involved? Yeah. Let's start there. I'm throwing a ton at you. Let's start with that.
Albert Saniger: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean, AI is everywhere right now. I remember the days when AI used to be a sector in its own, right? Now, it's become a key part of so many companies in so many industries. A couple of areas that are exciting to me right now, as it relates to retail or commerce is... There's a lot going on in augmented reality and virtual reality, which Nate does not do. I see a lot of new ways for consumers to interact with products in the early stages of their buying intention journeys like virtual showrooms and in similar experiences. The second example is, that I'm actually more excited about even than this is, distribution centers are getting smarter and enable Amazon style shipping, which is like quick and single package, even if the consumer has three items on three different stores.
Eric Boduch: Interesting. There's a few things I want to jump into from there, but let me step back for a second. You talked about AR and VR, and I'll definitely jump down that path for a little bit. I'd like to hear about how logistically they manage that shipping approach, but maybe we should step back to Nate. Nate's one of those cool things for retail tech. Why do you think Nate so important? What Nate does? Why is that so important for retail tech?
Albert Saniger: Nate was never built with the e- commerce ecosystem in mind. Nate was built with human psychology in mind. We basically said, we don't care how all of these publishers, affiliates, merchants, brands, retailers, and infrastructure companies, payment processors, everyone who's somehow... Or logistics companies, everyone who's somehow involved in this chain. Hopefully we're volume creative to them, but we don't care about their motivations or incentives right now. We care about, what is the longterm future look like and what does a consumer want? That is a very healthy and easier problem to solve in a way, because you're just looking at, " What do people want? What people want is, when they see something and they want it, they want it right away and they don't want to deal with any additional drama. That is what Nate has provided. When you ask Nate to buy something for you, it takes you three clicks, five seconds, you can buy anything in the web and you don't have to worry about checking out anymore. That I think is transformational for the consumer. That up until now, people have been redirected to take different paths. Now, you have to visit this website because this person wants the traffic or the click. Now, you have to enter your email here and then you'll get another$ 1 off or whatever, and then we'll collect your data and we'll do this. Then, all those micro decisions that add up and they're very taxing for the human brain.
Eric Boduch: I know for me, I always... If I find something I want to buy at a new website where I don't have an account, there's that added hurdle where like, " Can I really just buy this from Amazon?" If I can't, then I'm like, " Do I really want to go through the effort of setting up another account, managing that?" Then, God forbid, a password gets hacked or something. I have like, " Passwords, I got to go change and all this kind of stuff." Because let's be honest, we tend to share passwords. We don't have a unique password for the 5, 000 different places, we have accounts. We definitely share them at least across some accounts. Then, all of a sudden you're like, " Oh, is this worth the hassle of going through the process of working with this vendor?" Because it's not just like walking into a retail store and just flashing your credit card and tapping it against the system and your purchase is done. It's definitely a level of effort. I've been through that. I've done that justification.
Albert Saniger: Recently, I went through an exercise at the beginning of the year where basically for the last two years, I have not checked out on a single website on my own, meaning manually with my fingers, but I was still buying certain things from Amazon, which I don't consider that checking out because there's a buy now button that I love. I was doing some of my purchases on Amazon and the rest of the purchases. I was asking Nate to buy them for me. I went through this exercise of, " How can I de- Amazon? What are all the things that I need to do in order to completely de- Amazon?" For the last two and a half months or so, I guess since the beginning of the year, I have completely de- Amazon now. I'm like, " Anything I bought, I buy on Nate instead of Amazon."
Eric Boduch: Interesting. Let's talk about AR, VR. That was another trend you talked about. When do you think that's going to change? When is that going to change? How we interact with things? It's been a promise for a long time, right? I feel like the tech is starting to get there in some ways, but there's still hurdles. What do you think?
Albert Saniger: I think brands have been on a several year journey of rethinking how they interact with consumers and increasing the number of channels that they either sell or talk to consumers in, which is a mix of, the Amazon marketplace, Instagram shopping. Now, perhaps like tech talk shopping, or their own direct to consumer website, retail stores, you name it. Increasingly, especially over the last year, they've been forced to accelerate other ways in which they can provide the consumer with more information about that product. That is not just a product page with a few images. I see a few brands that are investing in AR and VR for consumers to make more informed decisions. One that comes to mind that did it quite well last year was Apple. When I bought my new iPhone, I wanted to see it and I didn't want to go to the store. Instead, what I did was use my prior iPhone and I used augmented reality to position the new iPhone in my hand and see how it would feel and then I turned it in and I looked at the details. It wasn't the exact same as feeling the iPhone physically, but it definitely gave me enough conviction that then I decided to buy the new iPhone. Right? There were a few companies doing similar experiences, especially in fashion and beauty. I think that's just going to continue. I'm not that bullish on it necessarily. I'm not telling you, people aren't going to stop going to physical experiences. I think people are really excited to see products and other humans in- person again, but I certainly observed the trend and it's not going to get any smaller.
Eric Boduch: Yeah. I like the AR part of in particular, because if I'm buying a lamp or I'm buying furniture, it would be great to see the lamp on my desk or the furniture in the room, I'm going to buy it for. Those kinds of experiences I think are natural fits. The clothing shopping is a whole nother one where trying to get it in a VR environment where you would see how it actually fits on you as a whole another challenge that feels in some ways almost insurmountable. The other thing we talked about with shipping, right? I guess because of the pandemic, I feel like we're a little more cognizant of it. In some ways, the problems around shipping. Some of the food delivery services, I know personally, I ended up quitting because there's a huge amount of packaging. I feel like, even with Amazon, when I'm ordering things through that buy now button or otherwise, it's like, " I get stuff that shows up every day where I'd be happy if I got like one box once a week, sometimes." Now, you're talking about this whole idea of consolidating shipping from multiple vendors. Talk to me about how that changes things?
Albert Saniger: If this is something that Amazon has been working on for a while. You'll notice that if you buy three different items on Amazon, within a 24 hour period, there is a solid chains have to have out of those three items come in the same box. Now, it doesn't happen all the time because sometimes those items are placed in different physical distribution centers, but when they can, they do it. Of course, only a company like Amazon is able to have the scale and the data and to create that intelligence to offer that experience to users. There are infrastructure companies that are enabling that similar experience to retailers and brands who don't want to control the entire logistical experience for the consumer. If brands get in other retailers get more comfortable with the box not being branded, then they can sign up for the services that are multi brand and multi retailer distribution centers that get smarter and smarter. Think about it as... Amazon has the Amazon marketplace model, which basically the brand still owns the stock and just pays a fee to Amazon for selling on Amazon. There's a subset of that, which is called MFN that basically allows that brand to ship the inventory to Amazon. It is still owned by the brand, meaning the brand only gets paid when the customer buys it, but it is in an Amazon distribution center. Therefore, the consumer can use their prime account to get faster shipping as a result also for marketplace items. Similar to the Amazon MFM model, I imagine companies like Shopify will be going into distribution center business and logistics business, and offer a MFM like experience for their merchants.
Eric Boduch: It sounds really cool. Let's jump back to AI. We talked about AI and how it's influencing retail tech. Talk to me about some of the downsides of AI when it comes to retail? Because we've all heard stories. Tell me one of the stories you've heard and then what do we need to do to combat that? How do you talk to your teams about using AI more responsibly?
Albert Saniger: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I actually do have a story. Well, the overarching theme is, I think there's way too much going on in the world of predictive intelligence specifically. In this story is an industry friend who I can't name, told me that there is a company in China that can predict with 90% accuracy what someone is going to buy, 48 hours before they buy it. If it looks like they won't buy it, they start blasting them with ads until it becomes a self- fulfilling prophecy. That story to me, I mean, it's still mind blowing. I knew this world would eventually come and I was scared that it would come, but just to see that it's already happening is crazy. I actually asked him, I said, " What happens when the consumer doesn't buy?" He was apparently they start shipping the package from one side of China to the other side of China, in order to offer quick delivery. If it's the package is in one distribution center, they start shipping it before the customer has bought it. I said, " What happens if the customer doesn't buy it?" They say, " Oh, the package stops at the last distribution center and then it gets rerouted." But it's still worth to start shipping the package ahead of time, especially with this degree of accuracy and there's enough. Then, you do the math of how much should we spend on ads to make sure that this customer actually ends up buying it. There's an in- between that actually makes it worth it for the company, which is insane. In theory, there's some good that should come out of algorithm recommendations, but in practice, I believe it's doing more harm than good. I'd need... For example, we take a really strong stance against algorithms, curating your world. If that's for you, by all means, spend the time in platforms that use your data to curate your world. However, it doesn't matter how you get to the decision of buying something. Basically, whenever you made the decision to buy something, then Nate will be here to do the checkout. Whether you decided for yourself, or you had an algorithm decide for you, Nate will be here to do the checkout, but at Nate as a platform, you will never be spammed with stuff. Instead, we promote human to human inspiration. An example of that is you can build lists on Nate. You can create a list and add any products from any website in the world, and then share that list with friends who can follow it and buy things directly from it, if they want to. You can get that inspiration, but it's driven by another human who is a friend of yours who has a share that list with you. Then, when you share with Nate and then hit buy, then we use AI to navigate websites intelligently and complete the checkout on your behalf. Broadly speaking, I think AI should be used less in the discovery phase and more in the checkout payments and logistics space, because if we delegate the decision making to machines, then what does it mean to be human after all?
Eric Boduch: That's a very mad question that we might have to address at a different time. That could be a long conversation. Other things that come up, security, privacy. What are you guys doing around that and what role does AI play in that?
Albert Saniger: I am a privacy junkie. One of those people that I delete my browser history all the time, I delete the cookies and always private mode. I try to not have that much digital footprint about my life, unless it's harming my lifestyle, in which case I sometimes give in. I try to be as limited as I can with information that other companies own about me, about Nate specifically, when you buy something online... Well, outside of Nate in general, when you buy something online and it's not just you and the store that keeps that information, it's also often your browser, your bank, the credit card network, the payment processor, the fraud prevention service, and the list goes on. Right? There's a ton of companies out there and you're agreeing to the terms of service that say, " By buying this, you are agreeing that all of these people are going to own all of this information." I have seen examples where a consumer buys a$ 10 toothbrush, but the very fact that they're buying that toothbrush is actually worth$ 20 for information. In a way you should be paid. If all these companies are retaining this information, you should be paid$ 10 to buy that toothbrush, or otherwise you should own that data. When you buy with Nate, we actually issue a virtual card for every transaction. Some people have this service and they go through the hassle of generating the virtual card themselves every time that they want to buy something online. At Nate, that is completely automated, so you don't have to deal with that. We issue it every time. We effectively pay for that item and then we debit your bank account directly but on your bank account statement is simply says, Nate. If you want to check your purchase history, you can always see it in the Nate app and do things like one click buy again, for example, but at least, you know that your data is not leaving the app. We do not sell your data and we do not use it to show you ads or recommendations or do predictive intelligence. At Nate, we're entirely aligned with you as a consumer and primarily just here to help. That's also why we charge for our services, because unlike many consumer products out there, our users are also our customers.
Eric Boduch: There's one thing you said that I wanted to dig a little bit farther into this. I always going to ask you and I will ask you about how you got that product market fit with Nate? But first, you did mention that you've given in to some where you've enabled them to understand a little bit more about who you are and have a bigger digital footprint. What did you give into and why?
Albert Saniger: Okay. For example, there're some companies that I trust. I really trust Apple, for example. I have very purposely trained the Apple TV homepage algorithm to show me certain pieces of content that I know be more interested in, but it was a very proactive approach. It was like, " Okay. For the first few days, I'm going to enter these shows, watch them for this amount of time. Then, I'll enter those shows and I'll watch this amount of time. Then I'll watch this movie, then that movie and that movie." Now, I feel great about it. I literally, every time I want to watch something and I want to explore something new, I open the apple TV app and there's always content from you out there. I was very intentional about that. I guess I didn't necessarily give in, and I was intentional about it. I was like, " You know what? I'm going to inaudible that algorithm."
Eric Boduch: Yeah. Yeah. I was saying you were tricked. I mean, you did it knowingly.
Albert Saniger: Yeah. I did it knowingly, exactly. Then, there are some examples where I do the complete opposite. For example, on YouTube, I will always browse, logged out and I delete the app often. I also sometimes change my IP address. Then, once a year I changed my phone so that changes the device. There's less and less identifiers. I'm guessing Google has a much harder time understanding who I am as a consumer than Apple, which I trust. I also had this crazy experience when I was in business school. I'm not on any Facebook products. Personally, though, as a company, we are on Instagram, for example, and we have a ton of fun, but as Albert, I'm not on Instagram or Facebook. When I was in business school, we went to the Facebook campus and there, we had to do this tour. Then, I realized when I was there, that the only way to access the Facebook campus was to log in with your Facebook account. It was like, identify yourself and then you can go through. I don't know if that has changed or that was my experience only, but I can definitely tell you that that happened. I got there and I had no profile, right? I couldn't go in and they had to create a profile for me. I know that Facebook somehow has a profile that says Albert Saniger and I don't know if there's a password to it. I've no idea, but I managed to do the tour, but they had to create a profile for me.
Eric Boduch: That's pretty funny. Back to Nate. Talk to me about finding product market fit.
Albert Saniger: Interestingly, I look at some founders, look at product market fit as a series of answers from consumers about how unhappy they would be if the product disappeared in their lives. That is an output metric that you can measure, but it doesn't necessarily break the problem down for you to know which actions you have to take. I see product market fit has a series of feature and market fit decisions. I look at what is Nate going to look like in a few years from now and I can predict that some of these, what we call features will be entire products on their own, and we'll have different prog managers, different teams that push updates. If I consider that as a product on its own, then product market fit for Nate as a consumer app is an aggregation of product market fit and a feature by feature basis. At Nate, we have... I mean, there's a ton of things that we do, but they can be bucketed into three aspects of the consumer value curve. The first one is activity, which is basically section of the app where you get notified of all of the things that are happening around you. Second is lists, where it's just like Pinterest 2.0, basically, you can build any list that you want with a bunch of products has images. You share them with friends that can follow them and buy things from them. The third one is gifts, which is this idea that you should be able to send a gift to anyone without having their address. Instead of saying, " Hey, what's your latest address? Can I send you a gift?" You can just go on Nate and then tap ship to a friend and that instead of entering a shipping address that generates a link and you can paste that link onto a conversation like a text message, iMessage or Instagram, DM conversation. We also have buy now, which is the feature I mentioned earlier. It's just skip the checkout. Then, privacy, discounts and one more that will be announced in a few weeks. All of those things have to reach product market fit on their own. Instead of us measuring the entire product basically, because otherwise you launch something new and it could pollute the data of your entire product. If you break it into a feature by feature that at least you'll have a more visibility over how people are behaving with those.
Eric Boduch: That was going to try to get the new announcement out of you that you're announcing in a couple of weeks, but then I realized that by the time this thing publishes anyways, it's going to be already announced. This will be six or eight weeks from now.
Albert Saniger: Okay. crosstalk.
Eric Boduch: Whatever's new is there. If you want to pitch it, you can.
Albert Saniger: Okay. Let's do it. Nate is launching Pay Later, so you'll be able to finance any transaction. For the first time, point of sale financing is actually going to be universal and not dependent on whether that merchant has all these point of sale financing solutions that exist out there. You can buy anything in the world with Nate, but you can also split the payment in four without fees or interest.
Eric Boduch: Awesome. That's pretty cool.
Albert Saniger: Yeah.
Eric Boduch: Now Nate, I'm assuming it's already there.
Albert Saniger: Yeah.
Eric Boduch: You can now pay later with Nate. Awesome. Talk to me about the culture at Nate. What's it like working there? I imagine it as a pretty interesting culture just based upon both you and the nature of your product. What's the company culture, the product culture like? How have you kind of merged those two things together? How do you roll your company around your product offering?
Albert Saniger: There are... At Nate, we have a little bit under 50 people full- time and there are 25 different nationalities, five religions and all sorts of gender identities. Those are just some of the things that basically indicators of the kind of company that we are. We live by five principles primarily. The first one is self- care isn't selfish. The second one is disagreeing is healthy. The third one is make true promises. The fourth one is forgiveness or permission and the fifth one is always look forward. Everyone at Nate lives by those five principles, performance reviews are always related to those five principles and we tend to check each other often. Sometimes we go, " Hey, you need to take care of yourself more." Or, " Hey, you don't need to ask for permission on this, just go and do it." That is the company culture, or at least those are some principles that give you a glimpse of the culture because the culture is a mix of values, processes and frameworks, right? Those are just the values, but at least it gives you an idea of the people that are attracted to work at Nate. For the product, there are... The design principles that are a little bit different, but complimentary. For example, one design principle is that we want people to disengage as much as possible from checkout. We have this concept of staying in flow. How do we allow the consumer to not break their flow? Flow is a borrowed word from yoga, which.... I've been practicing yoga for years. I love this idea of transitioning from one post to another. Not breaking your flow is transitioning through different moments of your day without having to overstress or over rationalize too much what's going on. That's one of our design principles when we think about anything that we ship at Nate. Then, a couple of other principles that we will never break, the first one is related to the AI conversation we had earlier, which is humans inspire machines execute. The second one is related to the privacy conversation we had, which is data belongs to people, not companies. The product team operates based on those three principles and in order to deliver them, they live on those other five principles that I mentioned earlier. There they're different, but they're quite complimentary.
Eric Boduch: Awesome. Well, let's find a little bit more about Albert. What's your favorite product?
Albert Saniger: Oh, outside of Nate, I guess because I'm super biased, right?
Eric Boduch: Yeah. Maybe outside of Nate. I imagine Nate's one of your favorite products.
Albert Saniger: No doubt. No doubt. I use Nate a lot, but also, I'd say Uber. I really love Uber as a product. Specifically, I like this idea that... Before Uber, I used to have to think really hard about how to go from point A to point B in a city. I would have to go somewhere. I mean, right now we live on Zoom, so it's a little bit different, but I used to think, " Okay. How am I getting there? Am I taking the bus? Am I driving? Am I taking the subway? Am I walking? What am I doing?" I can still do those choices if I want to, but if I don't want to think about it, I can just press a button and then I can go there. Right? That peace of mind is so important to me. It's not that dissimilar from Nate. Actually, if you think about it in terms of like this concept of flow, I basically optimize for flow in my life. What more friction can I reduce from my life, so that I feel that I'm always in flow? Uber has been transformational for me because before Uber, I was super stressed about how I was going places and now I can still be in my creative mindset and still transport my body from one place to another.
Eric Boduch: I like it. Final question, three words to describe yourself.
Albert Saniger: Actually, someone asked me this question recently and I have a very fresh answer because I asked my team to help out with the answer. I'm going to say inquisitive, caring and resilient.
Eric Boduch: Awesome. Well, thank you. It was a blast.
Albert Saniger: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Eric.