Speaker 1: Hey there, product lovers. Welcome to the Product Love Podcast, hosted by Eric Boduch co- founder and chief evangelist of Pendo, and super fan of All Things Product. Product Love is the place for real insights into the world of crafting products as Eric interviews, founders, product leaders, venture capitalists, authors, and more. So let's dive in now with today's Product Love podcast.

Eric Boduch: Well, welcome lovers of Product. Today, I'm here with Evan English, who is the vice president of Product Design and user research at AmEx. Evan, why don't you kick this off by giving us a little overview of your background?

Evan English: Sure. And thanks for having me, Eric. Excited for our convo today. So, I lead a team right now within our broader digital product organization that's responsible for membership digital experiences. Specifically, I lead the design. These are experienced design and research teams and the experiences that we are responsible for in partnership with our product and engineering teams really boil down to the enterprise AmEx mobile app, as well as our web experiences with a focus on the logged- in experience. So once you're a customer with us, that servicing experience that we offer behind login. So my team is made up, it's a multidisciplinary design team made up of product designers, researchers, UX writers, design ops team. We have some people who are highly specialized in system design, we have a big focus on information architecture. So we've brought in specialists to help us focus on that piece. But that is the team in a nutshell, very multidisciplinary, highly embedded with our product team so that the partnership is tight and the collaborations there, and just working on trying to build the best experiences we can for our customers.

Eric Boduch: Talk to me a little bit about that, about highly embedded, why? How it helps and what that means?

Evan English: Yeah. So I think broadly, I think about design team models within an in- house set up, I think about them in three ways. You could have a more of a central design operation where you're operating almost like an in- house agency, and it's a bit more project based and teams are coming to you almost as a service. And then there's the other end of the spectrum where you're highly embedded and just in a typical office environment, co- locating with your product and engineering peers and being a bit more continuous in the way that you're set up. So that it's a little bit more programmatic and you have a shared vision with those product and engineering partners that's for the longterm. And so, it's not so project based or short- term, it's a bit more continuous. I think is the best word I can think. And then there's somewhere in the middle, which I think is actually more us right now where we're a little bit of both because some of our functions within the team are a bit more service- oriented and project based because we're just not scaled to the point where we can embed researchers and UX writers fully across all teams. And when I say team, I'm thinking a scrum team more or less. But our product designers definitely are embedded as best that we can. And I have product design directors on my team who are more or less dotted line report into my product peers. They're so closely working with those teams. They attend all of their ceremonies, their team meetings, any type of team events, things like that. They're just part of their team, if that makes sense. And it's really worked out well for us because I think they do have very much, they have a shared vision, shared goals, shared passions for what they're doing. And that really helps at the end of the day when we're working towards driving the best experiences that we can.

Eric Boduch: So, I mean, if you were to work somewhere else and then you had blank slate, as far as how product design and user research was working with the product organization or the organization as a whole, is this the way you would do it and make it tightly embedded teams or does it vary based upon the type of organization? What advice would you give?

Evan English: I love that question. I think it depends on the organization and the team. I think that's a really important dimension. I think it's all about context at the end of the day and where you are within your broader journey. And I think there's so many different dimensions that inform how you set yourself up and it's iterative as well, like any good... And then that's actually how I've thought about our org evolution. My background is more product management. So I went into product manager mode and I was... I created a roadmap for how I wanted to build this org and it's very iterative and based on feedback. And that's how I think about it. I think every org is different and depending on factors like the broader maturity of the organization from a product and engineering standpoint, the tooling that you have, the types of projects you're working on. I think those are all just some of the dimensions that go into how you have to think about this.

Eric Boduch: You mentioned it a little bit starting out in product and you're now in product design and user research. So, talk to me about how you got into product design.

Evan English: Yeah. So I officially jumped into this role about two years ago as of March, I think, and prior to this role, I started at AmEx just to take a step back 10 years ago. And my first role AmEx was definitely in a product functional though. We didn't really call it that at the time we were in the beginnings of our digital transformation. Most of that was from an engineering lens. And as that was evolving, this need for product managers and taking a look at what technology companies were doing and software companies were doing and looking at that and trying to integrate that into the AmEx ecosystem was a big part of what going on when I started at AmEx and as part of that digital transformation and that evolution again, like I said, it was very engineering- led and product stood up from that. But design was never really a factor in the early days, but as we brought in product leaders who understood the value of design, that started to happen in a very experimental way, I think there was a lot of repurposing roles where they could, there was never this like large investment in design. It was happening organically. My role at the time when I started to bring design in- house, I was in the merchant organization and I essentially went to my boss at the time and said," This is an ask in a need for speed and utility at this moment because we have become more agile in our thinking and our working, but by outsourcing design, that's slowing us down." And while the agencies we worked with were fantastic, they are not close to the business at the end of the day. They're absorbing and they're learning and they're, they have their process, but we really wanted to bring in a few designers who could absorb the business and bring that into their work. And again, it was all about forging that tight collaboration with product engineering and really rounding out that three- legged stool towards building good products. So, I was a director of product at the time and somehow made some business case that stuck and I hired our first two designers within that team. And then when a broader enterprise digital team was formed about four or five years ago, that's when all of a sudden pockets of design teams were coming together. And we had a much larger design organization to work with and partner with. And at that time I was a VP of product. And over time, the product designers were embedded with the product teams and reporting into product VPs. So I had a sizable design team within my portfolio, and then it got so big that my leader made a conscious decision to sort of centralize the leadership across this so that we could actually start putting more focus on building up the function, thinking through scale in a different way and really taking it seriously because I have always been so passionate about design and research and user experience. And I was always I think, a pretty strong voice and advocate for it in the company. My leader asked me if I wanted to do it. And that led me to this role. So it was very organic, but I would say along my entire product career, I've always just... It's the part that I've loved the most about the product role is being really close to the user and working with designers. And I've always just been passionate about creative spaces and it felt like a good fit.

Eric Boduch: Yeah. Interesting. I'm curious now, you mentioned your boss, who is your boss and who does your boss work for? I'm curious to understand like the organizational design at AmEx and how that works.

Evan English: I know. I'm with you. I'm always curious because every company is so different. So, I report into an SVP of product to AmEx and she's responsible for a large portfolio of experiences. I mentioned the mobile app, Amex. com, our membership experience that customer facing piece, as well as our push ecosystem, all of the ways that we communicate to our customers and personalization strategy that fuels how these experiences come together across the channel. So she reports into our head of enterprise digital and analytics, and he has responsibility for all, most of digital products within the company, as well as data science, analytics, machine learning, things like that. So, it's a really nice set of specialist skill sets coming together with an angle of helping to drive the business forward and obviously build great customer experiences for our customers. crosstalk And she has responsibility for the acquisition product side as well. So, back to fueling that growth and acquiring more customers at the end of the day, too.

Eric Boduch: So your bosses, boss and maybe I'm making too far of a jump, but it feels like the chief digital officer at AmEx is that accurate or close to it?

Evan English: We don't have that official title, but yeah. And there are digital teams outside of our org, the way that AmEx is structured, we have lines of business that are responsible for different parts of the organization. We take a very enterprise view into what we do, to be as efficient as possible. But we do have teams in our B2B organizations that are focused on digital as well.

Eric Boduch: Got it. So, we talked about how you got into product design. Let's step back a little farther. How'd you get into product to begin with? What made you passionate about product?

Evan English: Again, very haphazard and organic. I was an English major in college and I didn't want to be an English teacher, which is what everyone inevitably asked me if that was what I was going to do, but I loved reading. So I wanted to work in publishing. And so my first job out of college was in actually in book production and more of an editorial role with Scholastic, which is a children's publisher. And when I came to Scholastic, it was a good first role out of college, but I wasn't passionate about it, but my boss at the time was so encouraging. And she was like," You should try to find another role within the company that's going to align a little bit more with your passions." And I ended up in a group with a big focus on digital, and it was still very new- ish at the time, not to reveal my age, but it was still emerging. And Scholastic, I think was very forward- thinking in how they thought about technology in general, because they were really looking at it from an education lens and understanding the need from a learning perspective, obviously a big media company. So lots of digital games and scholastic. com was evolving at the time that I joined the company. So it was a really exciting time to be there. And I ended up in a group with a big focus on partnerships and enabling digital experiences for a lot of the third- party partners we worked with. They ranged in companies and government organizations and nonprofits. And the role that I ended up transitioning into was this Jack of all trades type of role, where you're just working on all sorts of digital things like whatever. And it was like me, I was a team of one. And so, any day it could be like emails. It could be micro- sites at the time, it could be online advertising. I mean, it ran the gamut in terms of what I was working on and that transitioned into more of I think product management role over time. I was at the company for a while and that's how I got into it. It was just being part of that digital evolution, if you will. That was going on at the time and grasping an opportunity. Because the thing I loved about it was that first and foremost, the proximity to the customer and building things that kids and teachers would use was really exciting for me and getting results really fast and being able to see the impact right away through the different tools you could use to measure whether people were using what you built at the end of the day, and then obviously the proximity to the business and helping to drive business goals alongside those customer goals was really interesting to me. And so. That's how I got into it. And, and I didn't really know that it was refer to as product today. And then, like I said, it was a bit more of a digital Jack of all trades type of function, I think at the time. But that's how I ended up getting the role that I got at American Express. And from there, it started to become a bit more of a serious career path.

Eric Boduch: Interesting. I mean, it's always great hearing people that have gotten into product, not from the engineering side, but from other educational paths or other experience paths I think. Product definitely is a role that can be filled by people that have diverse backgrounds. And I think when we look at product teams, it's important to have a team that has a diverse background for diversity of thought more than anything else.

Evan English: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I always say that to people who want to get into this space and they, their first question is like, well, I'm not super technical. Can I do it? And I was, I always encourage them to think about the strengths that will bring value to the role, because I completely agree with you. I think there's some product managers who check off all the boxes of strength across design engineering, research, project management, et cetera. But then I think there are some product managers who go deep in those other disciplines and can really bring that into their work and learn on the job, some of the other aspects to product management. So, I'm plus one on what you just said.

Eric Boduch: Yeah. And there's a lot of soft skills that are essential for product managers, whether it's empathy, curiosity, communication skills. I think that's completely undervalued when you talk to people in college thinking of," Hey, I want to be a product manager at some point." And they don't think about the fact that it's not a CEO role. It's not a CEO of a product role in the majority of cases. It's a lot of consensuses building. It's a lot of communication and those skillsets become essential.

Evan English: Yeah, absolutely.

Eric Boduch: So, you're in a unique position given your background. I don't think you've written code, but maybe you have, but talk to me about like how product teams can work better together with counterparts. So, how do product people work better with design and engineering?

Evan English: Yeah. So, well, to answer your... To your first question, I have not written code, so I think I've maybe attempted, but did not get far, but I think what's important is there's two things that come to mind that I would say help with that collaboration goal and working together better the first is understanding the language of your counterparts. I think that one's really key. I've talked about this before in other podcasts. To me when I first got into this role and even back during the days of Scholastic, and I was trying to understand what engineers did or designers, I really tried hard to understand their vocabulary and what I mean by that is, the tools they were using, the different methods they were using, or just straight up the basic, the language. What is HTML at the time? What is that? And then trying to understand that and read about it and go on my own self driven learning path to figure out those words, and then to be able to speak that language a bit more effectively with the cross- functional counterparts. So, I didn't need to be an expert per se, but I definitely needed to understand the breadth of technical talk and design talk that was going on across the teams that I was working with. I would say the second piece is really important, which is the empathy factor and really understanding what their day- to- day looks like. And again, even if it's... If you're not doing their role, per se, just trying to wear their hat sometimes and understanding the position or the depth of effort that goes into their work as well. I think design in particular, just because I'm so ingrained in it right now. I think one of the common misconceptions around design is it's just like creating screens. And visual design and the" Making things pretty." And so, I always encourage product managers to really get under the hood of what design means and really understand the nitty gritty and the complexity behind the scenes. I certainly did that when I was a product manager and spent a lot of hours just sitting in a room with the engineers and the designers just honestly observing what they were doing and just trying to understand their role. So those are two things that come to mind, it's really understanding the vocabulary and understanding the function by observing and understanding the effort that goes into their day to day.

Eric Boduch: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Talk to me about... We jumped on and, and had a thread I wanted to go down when we were talking about your work at AmEx. What are your current priorities there? Talk to me about what the big pushes from a product design and user research standpoint at AmEx today.

Evan English: Yeah. So, I think to understand what we're focused on today, it's important to go a little bit down the history books a little bit, and I won't go too far down the history books, but where our focus has been over the past couple of years, which has really been anchored in a lot of globalization work, re- platforming, getting onto either more modern or more cohesive technical stacks and things like that. And also to a degree feature parody. So, where we've needed to really... If you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs and where we've had to baseline and ensure that we've got the most important features in all markets, that's been a big focus for us not to say there wasn't core user experience work or innovation going on along the way. There certainly was. But a large portion of our focus was on which started about three or four years ago on a lot of that heavy globalization and re- platforming work, which as you can imagine, AmEx is a big company with... We're not like a startup. Where we're not working with a lot of newer services and things like that. So it's a lot of work to do that. And I think the team is really proud of accomplishing that. And why I bring this up is because we're at a really critical point now where we can start to pivot and think about the customer experience in new ways that we haven't had a chance to before. So, a big focus for us right now is things like information architecture and really rethinking the way that our channels, our digital channels are structured to accommodate not just the customer needs better, but also the evolution of our business. So, we have a very featured depth experience. We've got our core services features in app and web push, and then we have all of these different lifestyle features. And then we have new and emerging products that are coming out as well, that we need to figure out how to accommodate for. And what that means is we need to evolve the structure of our site to really think about how we integrate all those things in a much more elegant way, rather than just shoving them in where we think they fit. If that makes sense. So that's a really big focus for us from a design standpoint. It's how do we start to approach that? Part of that thinking is also anchored in the fact that our customers have so many relationships with us and there're different ways that they work with us. You can have multiple cards with us. You could do banking with us through our savings products. You can travel with us, you can dine through us. You could own a small business through us. And so, how do we start to think about serving that customer across multiple counts and not at a singular account level, if that makes sense. So, really thinking about a true customer hierarchy in the way that we design our channels, it's really what we're focused on, which is very exciting for the team.

Eric Boduch: I was going to have to say that. It has To be exciting to you too, because it feels like this is where customer centric design could fit in.

Evan English: Yeah. Absolutely.

Eric Boduch: So talk to me about that. Talking about customer centric design, what it means to you, what it means at AmEx, how it's affected the way you go about business.

Evan English: Yeah. I mean, for me, it's as simple as just you're putting the customer into your process and driving human outcomes. It really is inserting them into the way that you approach this. And the best way you can do that is through a really strong user research program, as well as that looking at the data. So, the way that we're set up to do that. So I have the user research function within my team and we have a bunch of different tools and programs and methods that we use complimenting that user research usability practice. We also have what we call a CX measurement practice, which is essentially just looking at the qualitative insights that we have at scale. And we do have that scale. So it allows us to look at this data, these insights almost in a statistically significant way, because we have very common themes that come up and we're able to use things like text analytics and really monitor the feedback in a way that gives us insights that lead to better decisions for the customer. And then of course, we have a third pillar of learning from our customers, which is more of the data science of the product analytics that is embedded in our organization, that we have a team that is specialized in that. And again, structured in such a way that they're embedded across the product teams and working hand in hand with those guys to serve up really strong insights from a data perspective. And so, our designers look at that information in concert with their product peers in engineering periods, and we use it to prioritize for the customer, but also it helps with design decisions as well. And I think we have all the right tools and practices in place. But at the end of the day, for me, it's bringing the customer into the process and really hearing from them directly. I think that's really important because you can have all the data in the world that you really need to balance that data with that human insight that you might not necessarily get from that data you need to hear from customers directly, the balancing between the two is really how we approach it.

Eric Boduch: Yeah. I find it interesting too, when you're talking about your bosses, bosses title, they had data science or data analytics and it, I mean, explicitly that just shows you how important data must be at AmEx. And I imagine you guys have a lot of data. It's definitely interesting. So you were just talking about how your design team is working closely with data scientists. I find that process very intriguing. So, talk to me about the role data science has InDesign and in AmEx as a whole, how that helps drive that customer centric design approach.

Evan English: The data side to our organization is humongous. I don't even know how many leaders who are focused on this across the company, but it ranges from everything from data governance through to machine learning and everything in between. And of the part that my team is exposed to is more the product analytics team who are looking at different sources of data and pulling together a measurement strategy for us. They help us anchor us in our, not just our goals and our outcomes that we're driving at the end of the day, but they help us with the analysis that we need. That's often centered around a problem that we're trying to solve. So, the way it works again, it's not like the designers are going directly to our product analytics team and asking for this, it's centered around a broader prioritization practice that we have in partnership with our product teams, so that we're making the best use of their time and energy as well. The same way that we measure our own design capacity or effort or the engineering's time and capacity it's that product analytics piece is factored into the equation of how we work. And so, we have strategic initiatives that we're all working on and the product analytics team is brought into those strategic initiatives from the beginning to help us think through the data strategy behind how we're going to bring... Not only how are we going to define our goals and our outcomes, but also how do we need to bring that analysis into our strategic approach to this initiative? The other piece that they work with us on. And when I say us, I mean, book product to design is the experimentation plan. So, we do a lot of test and learn and that ranges in A/ B tests through to beta approaches to how we dial up new features and introduce things to customers. And they're really at the center of how we approach that as well from a measurement standpoint. So they're ingrained along the entire life cycle, if that makes sense, just this the same way design is and researches, we all just worked together in a cross- functional way. It's not like design is necessarily going to them and saying," I need this data for XYZ." It's ingrained in our process is what I'm trying to say.

Eric Boduch: Yeah, no, I think that's really intriguing. And then think about how data is part of the process, not just something, that's a resource to get an answer to a question that comes from the process.

Evan English: The other thing we're trying to partner with them more on this year, I mentioned I have the sort of the CX measurement. That's what we call it. It's really the user insights, qualitative stuff that we get from surveys. And then we have the, more of the usability evaluative research side, but we're trying to almost come up with this tricepted approach and how we mine that data across the board, so that all the insights that we have and how do we bring that" Together more" as a big focus for us going into this year. So, who knows? A year from now I could have different topics to talk to you about and how we're approaching that piece. But I think the key thing is we have a really healthy partnership with them and that makes it feel less of like to your point, less of an ask at the project level and really just more, we're all working towards the common theme or common goal.

Eric Boduch: Tell me, you have access to a lot of data, you have data scientists and analysts, tightly integrated with the teams. What metrics matter to you? Take me through some of those details.

Evan English: Yeah. So the metric that matters most to me as an individual is the customer satisfaction piece. And we do measure digital customer satisfaction. And there are dimensions that ladder up to that, but we have a more robust way of measuring success beyond just customer satisfaction. We definitely look at customer satisfaction. We look at engagement and we measure that in different ways, whether it's daily, active usage, monthly active usage, or engagement at the feature level. And then we do look at the business in that impact as well of what we're doing. And typically that's through a revenue lens, but there're other dimensions. And then we have shared goals with our servicing organization. So, obviously American express is, is well- known for servicing. We do not shy away from saying how much we love our phone channel. And it's not something that we see as being and it's going away. We want digital to compliment our other channels. And we see it being a customer's choice at the end of the day how they want to interact with AmEx. That being said, obviously we're very focused on digital because we think that does make customers' lives easier. And we do have shared goals with our servicing partners to make sure that the experience feels unified and that we're working towards driving our customers to those digital experiences as well, whether, and that could be through our phone channels. If you talk to someone on the phone and they might drive you towards using digital more for various reasons. So we have shared goals with them as well, because at the end of the day, it's one customer experience. So, that's at a high level what we're looking at, which I don't think is totally different from a lot of companies, but for me personally, I'm desperate to prove out that customer dissatisfaction is the key to driving revenue and other business metrics and driving that linkage because I think it's so important. And that's the one that I really try to anchor my team around at the end of the day from a design standpoint and a research standpoint.

Eric Boduch: Yeah. I do think it's unusual in some ways. I mean, I think a lot of companies have looked at it and looked at customer support as a cost center. And that's been a primary driver to digital is let's remove some of the costs we have associated with supporting our customers. And I do think it's unique and frankly, the right approach, I think where you guys are thinking about it from more of a satisfaction standpoint and how we can have a best experience, whether it's across digital or other communication mechanisms, like the phone for the customer. Because there's people like me that don't want to have to call people. That's my last resort. I'd rather get most, everything answered digitally. I mean, if I'm calling someone that's because there's something I cannot solve digitally. So for then people don't just arbitrarily to push me to a digital mechanism or make it really difficult for me to get it and answer via phone. It's just a horrible customer experience. And it sounds like if companies take a more aggregated look of what does it look like across all of our touch points with the customer? What does that experience look like? They're going to get a much better result. And that sounds like what you guys are doing, which I would applaud you for.

Evan English: Yeah, definitely. I mean, some people just... They just need to talk to someone and I think there can be very stressful moments in your financial life sometimes too, where you just want to talk to a human and get a bit more assurance. Sometimes that's all you need.

Eric Boduch: Absolutely. I mean, I think that approach of looking at the customer touchpoints as mechanisms to drive satisfaction is a great one, as opposed to like looking at it from a cost minimization standpoint. And I'm sure you guys look at some of both, but if you're looking at it from the lens of that customer score, I think that's a great approach to things and it feels more like the right approach, at least in my humble opinion.

Evan English: Yeah, absolutely.

Eric Boduch: So, let's talk about how your strategy has, or hasn't changed during COVID. How has COVID effected strategy there?

Evan English: Well, I mean, the servicing theme is a good segue into that because when COVID came out on the scene, obviously servicing was the top priority from a number of dimensions, whether it was making sure all of our call center reps were set up to be able to support our customers from home, from their homes through to digital experiences that we knew we needed to accelerate to make sure that customers could do what they needed to do online or through the app to servicing. We had to pivot to prioritize core servicing features last year was a big theme for us. And I think we did a really great job. Fortunately, we had a good baseline to work off of. One of the big programs we launched last year was, financial relief program for our customers if they were experiencing hardship during those times was really proud of that from a design standpoint, because it was a good exercise in empathy and our UX writers in particular, I think that is outstanding job with language and really thinking through the tone of an experience like that, knowing it's a stressful time and just focusing on the brand, the mantra at AmEx is we have your back. And I think that, what better time to be able to dial that up and really make sure that we were there for customers. I think from a different lens, obviously we all shifted to working from home as well. And we really did pride ourselves in co- location and sitting next to each other and working side- by- side with product and engineering, looking over our shoulders. And so, we love our meetings. We love being in rooms together, having walls, things like that. So the whole shift to going, working at home, which I'm sure you've heard this story over and over again, it was obviously a transition. I think the biggest thing for us during that time, because we were so focused on servicing and accelerating digital features that would allow us to be there for our customers with also ensuring our user research program was intact because we did a lot of user research, obviously in physical user labs and things like that, and talking to customers face to face. And we stopped that immediately. That was actually one of the first things we did obviously for the safety, not just for our customers, but our colleagues. And so, we had to transition our operating model on that front. And it went really smooth, all things considering every now and again, there's like technology issues. But for the most part, we adapted well on that front and kept all of our user research going during that time, which was, I think really important because our customer's needs were changing. And so, we had to really listen as we were kind of going through the process of launching the servicing features I mentioned. And just overall, we've always been a globally distributed team. We have people based in London, Phoenix, New York, we work with partners and we have responsibility for the digital experience over in 25 markets. And so, we've worked with a lot of global partners. So the notion of being on video calls and working with cross- functional teams in a distributed way, wasn't completely new to us, but obviously there were distractions going on in the background and being able to stay focused, but also give people... Having high degrees of empathy, not knowing what everyone was going through and giving people the space to breathe. And also just being there for people was really key. And I think that really helped drive a really good energy towards keeping momentum and motivation on the work as well, if that makes sense. So, big focus on customer. As I mentioned around our servicing goals, that was a huge theme for us in 2020 when COVID first hit, but also making sure we were there for our teams, I think was equally as important. And by being there that really had a direct impact on how we do what we delivered to our customers as well, kind of full circle.

Eric Boduch: So tell me a little more about Evan now, what's your favorite product?

Evan English: Ooh, well, because I'm looking at it right now. I will say I did invest in one of those Nespresso machines, when the pandemic hit. And I will say I use it a little too much. So I do think a lot of my favorite products right now are anchored in the transition of working from home and just not being able to do the things that we were able to do pre pandemic. So, a lot of the favorite products are sort of anchored in, coffee, working out more. There's so many new apps where you can stream in workout classes and things like that. And I've got back into yoga. So I'm trying out different yoga apps every day. I'm that person who will download all the apps. And then twice a year, I do like a cleansing on the one I'm not using. And I know this is I'm very late to the party on this, I think, but I am. And the reason why this is interesting is because I've never been a watch person, but I'm into my Apple watch like maniacally right now. I got it because I felt like I wanted to be a bit more mindful of movement and getting up. And someone told me, it tells you when to stand and great for tracking steps and all those things. I wanted to make sure I was getting outside. Because I wasn't walking as much, obviously in the beginning of all of this. And I didn't think I was going to stick with it because I've never been a watch person. In fact, I remember getting a watch when I was a kid, a swatch watch and I lost it within an hour. And it was so devastating that I started vowed never to wear a watch again, but I was just never into them. And then when cell phones came out, it was like, you could use your phone for checking the time, but because the Apple watch is just so functional and offers up so much more than just the time I've become quite addicted to it. And I know I'm a little bit late on that party, but it really is like my key thing at the moment. So, there are a few things that come to mind. I also, I'm obsessed with Pinterest. Again, that's probably my most used app. I do everything on Pinterest. I used to plan trips via Pinterest. I love interior design, so I'm constantly saving things for the homes. I, I will never have in far off lands, just beautiful pictures. And I save recipes through Pinterest. I really do use Pinterest for a lot of different hobbies and things like that. So, I think they've done a really good job in evolving to add more features as they've recognized customer needs and from it a lifestyle perspective and just being able to organize things in different ways. So I appreciate that really appreciate any apps or experiences that are very information dense and managed to make it feel really simple and easy to use. So, Pinterest is probably if I were to do an analysis of most used apps, I think that's probably in my top three.

Eric Boduch: Cool. So one final question for you today. Three words to describe yourself?

Evan English: So, I think the first one that comes to mind is actually a hyphenated two words, which is level- headed. I try to remain very calm and level- headed, especially in stressful situations. I consider myself optimistic. And lastly, I would say, I am a bit scattered. So I think on the outside, I probably look pretty disorganized and scattered, but I had everything organized in my brain, is very organized drawer, but I think I'm always going a mile a minute and going in different directions. And so, sometimes it can feel a little bit scattered.

Eric Boduch: Thanks for your time today. This is great.

Evan English: Thank you. It was really good to meet you and thank you for having me.( silence)